Author Topic: soak  (Read 3677 times)

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Peter Francis

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soak
« on: October 06, 2008, 08:36:02 PM »
hey is there any ability to do a soak retest?

Offline Soothing Rain

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Re: soak
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2008, 08:41:52 PM »
"Soaking" is one of the most confusing things I've find about MET. They mention it various times in Laws of the Wild, but never give any mechanics. I've asked various STs and I believe I've received different answers from all. This is a good thing to bring up.
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Arianna_Fireau

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Re: soak
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2008, 08:42:27 PM »
"I"m tough enough to take it."

You can choose to soak instead of dodge.

Offline Soothing Rain

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Re: soak
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2008, 08:50:39 PM »
That's what I heard from one of the STs, I can't remember who. I've been in other games where you can make a soak test after taking damage, kind of like with the Vampire Discipline: Fortitude. *shrug* I just think it's confusing because from reading LotW, it seems like there is something more you can do than just take it instead of dodging.
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Arianna_Fireau

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Re: soak
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2008, 08:54:52 PM »
Upper ranks give you things similar to Fort.

At Athro you can test down Bashing to lethal, at Elder you can test down agg to lethal. It's similar to Fort.

Offline Soothing Rain

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Re: soak
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2008, 08:58:17 PM »
Ohhhh. The house rule thingy with the ranks. Those are nifty. OK, then.
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Offline Justin Northwood

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Re: soak
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2008, 09:32:49 PM »
I Believe I am speaking for the staff when I say this, because Mike, Joe, Emmy and I have discussed it in the past (any of you feel free to jump in if I'm wrong)...  You can choose to soak (be "though enough to take it" for example).  In these cases you are essentially attempting to block, not dodge.  In effect, deflecting the attack with your body.  Testing damage down following your "Tough/Block" move (Athro test down Bashing to Lethal, and Elder test down Agg to Lethal), reflects a character's ability to be better at being "though enough to take it."
Marc Berman

Offline Sam Kinkade

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Re: soak
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2008, 10:53:04 PM »
To answer the original question, Survival is the ability used to retest a Soak challenge.
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Offline Soothing Rain

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Re: soak
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2008, 10:55:43 PM »
Oh, that's what he meant? >.<
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Offline Justin Northwood

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Re: soak
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2008, 12:00:27 AM »
Survival makes sense as a retest, but I think the staff is going to have to discuss that one to reach a final ruling on whether or not a retest is allowed when soaking.
Marc Berman

Offline Sam Kinkade

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Re: soak
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2008, 12:08:23 AM »
I know in the vampire version of the writeup at least, its in the description of the ability.  I don't know about the werewolf version, as I can't find my book right now.
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Offline Justin Northwood

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Re: soak
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2008, 12:27:50 AM »
Not so in Garou at least...  From LotW:

Survival
It’s a jungle out there beyond the streets and cities, and if you don’t know how to find the necessities, death is assured. Survival represents a knowledge of terrain, how to find shelter, where to find water, techniques in hunting, identifying edible and poisonous plants and so on. No matter how bad things look, you know enough to cover the basics until you can reach civilization. Hunting and avoiding danger in the wilderness usually relies on a Physical Challenge, With Survival, you can substitute your Mental Traits if you so desire. Specialties in urvival can relate to skills like Tracking, Hunting, Trapping or to types of environment (Arctic, Desert, Forest).
Marc Berman

Offline Justin Northwood

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Re: soak
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2008, 12:33:51 AM »
I should point out though, that besides the general "soaking means taking the damage, possibly testing down if rank allows", there are specific examples of different soaking mechanics (for specific purposes) in the publications.  For example, also from LotW:

Silver Tolerance (7 Trait Merit)
Gaia has blessed you with the immunity to the inherent bane of Garou existence.  Although the damage from silver weapons is still aggravated, you may test and, on a win or tie, have the ability to soak it with your regenerative facilities. Also, it takes a pair of silver items carried to cause you to lose one Gnosis.
Marc Berman

Offline Justin Northwood

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Re: soak
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2008, 01:03:58 AM »
A few more examples from LotW:

Fire [Damage]
Fire damage is always aggravated. Torches and small fires touching just part of the body inflict one level of damage each turn while bonfires and flames covering half the body inflict two levels per turn and infernos and flames covering the whole body inflict three levels per turn. Garou can attempt to soak this damage, but must make a Static Physical Challenge to do so - against three Traits for candles and other sources of first degree bums, five Traits for torches and other sources of second degree bums, seven Traits for Bunsen burners and other sources of third-degree bums, nine Traits for chemical fires or 10 Traits for molten metal. Success removes one level of damage from the fire that turn.


Silver [Damage]
Silver is the metal of the moon, and Garou are uniquely vulnerable to the favored metal of the celestine who gives them so much. It’s not easy to make effective weapons out of silver, but skilled blacksmiths and gunsmiths do manage. A Garou suffers one level of aggravated damage every turn she’s in contact with silver, except for homid and lupus Garou in their respective breed forms.  Garou can only soak damage from silver weapons in Homid form.  Garou can carry silver, but it costs them Gnosis thanks to physical allergy and the spiritual “buzz” of the nearby threat. Lost Gnosis returns after aday away from all silver. For every five silver objects the members of a pack carry, all packmates lose a Gnosis Trait. Carrying a great many silver objects, particularly bullets, may also cost the pack Honor or Wisdom. A klaive costs the packmates a Gnosis Trait per day, and a grand klaive costs them two Gnosis each per day.


But then, in one of their oh-so-famous contradictions, WhiteWolf says:

Klaives and Other Fetish Weapons
Klaive: Level 4, Gnosis 6

This is the signature weapon of the Garou, a special style of dagger made for use in any form from Homid to Crinos. Klaives are rare and precious artifacts, not the least because each one has a pure silver blade and therefore subtracts one Gnosis Trait from its wielder’s current total. Not all klaives have spirits bound into them. A klaive without a spirit in the blade doesn’t have to be attuned, but without the spirit it only inflicts lethal damage on targets without a special vulnerability to silver. The spirit allows the blade to do aggravated damage to all targets. Pulling a klaive on a fellow werewolf generally indicates that the wielder desires a duel to the death. In successful times, klaive duels are rare; at the moment they’re rising in frequency as the tensions of the Final Day grow. Tradition-minded Garou
mourn the proliferation of klaives and their use for mundane tasks, while modern minded Garou complain about elders’ concealment of useful tools in times of need. A klaive gives three bonus traits in combat and inflicts an extra level of aggravated damage. Because it’s silver, werewolves cannot soak this damage.


Fetish Doll [Advanced Uktena Gift]: Sympathetic magic is as old as civilization, if not older, and the Uktena use it whenever they feel the end justifies this potentially abhorrent means. With this Gift, you construct a specially made doll with a piece of the victim (lock of hair, nail clippings) or something belonging to the victim (piece of clothing, jewelry), and then use the doll to inflict harm on the target from a distance. It takes one week to construct and enchant the doll once you have a piece of the victim or some important possession. Make a Mental Challenge (retest with Crafts) to complete the making. Once it’s complete, make a Static Mental Challenge against the victim’s Willpower while mutilating or damaging the doll. Success indicates the victim suffers a level of aggravated damage (soakable as per any ability the victim has to do so). Spend additional Mental Traits to inflict additional damage. The doll is destroyed and rendered useless once it transfers 10 levels of damage. If any challenge to inflict harm fails, make two Simple Tests. If both fail, the doll is immediately destroyed.

It should be pointed out that none of the abilities listed in LotW offer soaking as a benefit.  This is not to say though, that the gift couldn't be used against non-garou with the ability to soak.
Marc Berman

Offline Alexander Amarandus van Bokkelen

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Re: soak
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2008, 01:07:19 AM »
Is dodging a free action in this game?  I.e, does it cost anything to try beyond the trait risked?
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Offline Justin Northwood

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Re: soak
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2008, 01:15:38 AM »
I might not understand the real question, but here goes...

You always get a defensive action, so yes.  Even a character without the Dodge ability can attempt to dodge an attack.  Spending a trait of Dodge ability (for those who have it) only comes into play for retest purposes.  Whether or not you win or lose the Dodge retest, you still lose the temporary Dodge trait, as you didn't risk it, you spent it for the opportunity to retest.
Marc Berman

Offline Alexander Amarandus van Bokkelen

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Re: soak
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2008, 01:28:32 AM »
Well, here's where I'm aiming:

If it's silver and you don't know about it, soaking is inherently worse than dodging (surprise, you lose!).  If it carries Wyrm taint, soaking is inherently worse than dodging - soaking only *might* resist the taint, dodging definitely will.

If dodge gets a retest and soak doesn't, then it's almost always right to choose dodge rather than soak.  If there's two things that you can freely choose between and one of them is clearly better, there's not much point in having two of them.

If there's a retest for dodging, it seems like there should be a retest for soaking.  I don't know if Survival is the right thing, but it seems like time to spread the retest love.
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Offline Sam Kinkade

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Re: soak
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2008, 02:05:31 AM »
Also, if dodging is better then soaking in a good number of instances, why would anyone with the traits not dodge instead of soak?  especially as there is nothing stopping you from dodging every attack that comes your way, if you have enough dex related traits and chop well.
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Offline Carter Heyward

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Re: soak
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2008, 08:18:50 AM »
Don't forget in all your talk about soak, weapons do far less damage in MET than they do in tabletop, with its firm soak mechanics. A small example, a knife does 1 lethal in MET, but can could potentially kill a character in tabletop with one blow, even a Garou (based on an almighty, but achievable, dice roll). This is part of why there are no good soak rules in MET, because base damage is so low.

Furthermore it is my contention that WW got lazy and did some cut and paste from the revised tabletop book, since neither previous MET editions of the game mention soak at all, and certainly not in any of the examples Marc quotes from the revised edition.
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Peter Francis

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Re: soak
« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2008, 02:48:25 PM »
so the final answer is no retest on soak that suks i thought survival might have done it.

Offline Justin Northwood

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Re: soak
« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2008, 03:04:52 PM »
Once Mike has had a chance to chime in, I'll post a permanent consolidated reference on the topic of Soaking here in the Rules section.
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Offline Baron Tarl

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Re: soak
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2008, 07:49:10 AM »
In my travels i have seen the following variations:

Standardish: Survival
St Paul Garou: Athletics was the retest for soaking as it showed a natural conditioning of the body
Columbus Garou: Special Ability Resilience, resilience differs as you get 1 per rank + up to an additional 5 spent via exp.

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Offline Mike

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Re: soak
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2008, 01:55:28 PM »
Survival is the restest as Joe and I discussed this Sunday.
I have used Survival since I started for the Im tough enough to take it.

Why would someone choose to take it rather then dodge it?

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