Author Topic: Most Nontriumphant Issues with Iskakku  (Read 5073 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Soothing Rain

  • (Guest)
  • *
  • Posts: 1,911
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • "Be excellent to each other"
Most Nontriumphant Issues with Iskakku
« on: December 01, 2008, 01:24:21 AM »
So, I actually used Iskakku for the first time at the last game, and I realized that White Wolf did a less than stellar job at converting Iskakku maneuvers to MET. Here are the maneuvers copied from page 83 of the Revised CoG Tribe Book.

Iskakku Maneuvers:

One Trait - Attack and Block: Substitute Iskakku for Melee when using a staff in combat

Two Traits - Mahasu Qatu (Hand Smite): With a successful Physical Challenge (retest Iskakku), you may dislocate your attacker’s wrist (equivalent of one level of bashing damage). Until the damage is healed, that hand may not be used in combat.

Two Traits – Tammabukku Istu Kur (Dragon Emerges from Mountain): With a successful Physical Challenge (retest Iskakku), once per combat, you may thrust your staff at your opponent’s face. The attack inflicts two levels of bashing damage.

Two Traits – Tabalu Kur (Take Away the Land): By sweeping your staff, you can knock your opponent to the ground. Engage your opponent in a Static Physical Challenge against seven Traits (in the event of ties, compare you Iskakku score to his Athletics). With success, your opponent must fall to the ground. Getting back on his feat follows normal combat rules.

Four Traits – Sepu Istu An (Foot from Heaven): This maneuver requires two actions to perform. You use your staff to vault yourself through the air, delivering a powerful kick to your target. You must first have running room, then make a Physical Challenge (retest Athletics) to make the vault. On landing, a second Physical Challenge (retest Brawl) is necessary to inflict the damage (which may be bashing or lethal depending on your form and Storyteller discretion).

Five Traits – Adannu Lukur Daku (Appointed Time of the Enemy’s Demise): This maneuver requires two actions. With your enemy’s first attack, make a challenge to parry the blow. With success, you may make a Physical Challenge (retest Iskakku) to attack. Success on your attack challenge allows you to strike the opponent on the back of the head with your staff, knocking them unconscious for the next three rounds.


Now, let me get up on my soap box for a bit. Ahem. While a nifty combat style, the way I see it, there really are only three Iskakku maneuvers worth taking: Hand Smite, Take Away the Land and the legendary Appointed Time of the Enemy’s Demise. The other maneuvers seem to not make much sense to me and are most likely just very bad conversions.

Here is the first problem I see. The technique 'Dragon Emerges from Mountain' is useless and here is why: the description says it allows the Garou to deal two levels of bashing damage. A staff's base damage is two bashing and this technique is only usable once per combat. What's up with that?

Problem numero dos: Foot from Heaven. While it looks damn cool, the description of the maneuver basically tells you nothing. You go through all of these chops just to kick someone? And it can be bashing or lethal depending on what the ST says? Correct me if I'm wrong, but kicking someone does one level of lethal damage anyway, given that you are at least Cliath, right? So...you do all this just to kick someone in a dramatic fashion? And you've bought Iskakku x4 just to pull that off? The description doesn't even mention how much damage the attack does. It just says 'powerful kick', so I'm guessing that's more than a regular kick? Also, why would there be the option to have it deal lethal if the whole premise of Iskakku is to be a form of nonlethal combat?

I humbly ask the STs to look over these poorly converted maneuvers when they get a chance and possibly develop some house rules concerning the issues I brought up, in order to make these maneuvers make sense and not be useless. Thank you.

And remember kids, "Be excellent to each other."

*fades off into the distance strumming an air guitar in an unnecessary circular motion*
Kenny "Soothing Rain" Moor
Homid
Cliath
Child of Gaia
Ragabash
Shadow Lord Pure Breed x2
"In charge of" the Bed & Breakfast

"We will make whole."

-Deceased-

Offline Shulamith

  • PK
  • *
  • Posts: 318
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: Most Nontriumphant Issues with Iskakku
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2008, 07:50:35 AM »
*threadjacks horrifically*

Speaking of MET rules for special Tribe-only fighting styles, can I have some?  Pretty please, Mikal?

I've only been asking for two years.  Eventually I might get them, if I keep asking nicely.

Offline Ryan McKenna

  • (Guest) Jeremy
  • *
  • Posts: 1,350
  • Karma: +1/-2
Re: Most Nontriumphant Issues with Iskakku
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2008, 08:51:57 AM »
Well then the Wendigo need some and are there any other tribal martial arts that I'm just failing to remember at the moment?
Ryan "Razor Fang"  McKenna
Homid
Cliath
Modi
Get of Fenris
Ghost Wolves under Clashing Boom boom
Sept of the Hidden Flame
Pure Breed: 3 (Get of Fenris)

Offline Mike

  • Mike Leitao
  • Mike L
  • *
  • Posts: 6,722
  • Karma: +15/-5
Re: Most Nontriumphant Issues with Iskakku
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2008, 09:14:54 AM »
Wendigo don't have a specific tribal fighting style.
They can learn martial arts like everyone else but thats it.


Kalindo on the way



Offline Ryan McKenna

  • (Guest) Jeremy
  • *
  • Posts: 1,350
  • Karma: +1/-2
Re: Most Nontriumphant Issues with Iskakku
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2008, 09:16:40 AM »
Oh, hm I thought they had a hard weapons style. But your the boss.
Ryan "Razor Fang"  McKenna
Homid
Cliath
Modi
Get of Fenris
Ghost Wolves under Clashing Boom boom
Sept of the Hidden Flame
Pure Breed: 3 (Get of Fenris)

Offline Torvald Magnusson

  • (Guest) Vance
  • *
  • Posts: 1,717
  • Karma: +1/-5
Re: Most Nontriumphant Issues with Iskakku
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2008, 09:18:25 AM »
The Wendigo have North Wind which is a style similar to Kailindo but utilizes strikes with more visceral action and drives towards a far more lethal result. Though RAtC may not use it this is simply my experience with the canon world.

As Mikal has noted here, Wendigo do not have a specialized fighting style in this game.
Torvald "Phoenix Rider" Magnusson
Get of Fenris (Pure Breed x5)
Modi
Homid
Adren

Offline Ryan McKenna

  • (Guest) Jeremy
  • *
  • Posts: 1,350
  • Karma: +1/-2
Re: Most Nontriumphant Issues with Iskakku
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2008, 09:19:37 AM »
Right. Thanks Vance, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't imagining things... Ya know again.
Ryan "Razor Fang"  McKenna
Homid
Cliath
Modi
Get of Fenris
Ghost Wolves under Clashing Boom boom
Sept of the Hidden Flame
Pure Breed: 3 (Get of Fenris)

Offline Mike

  • Mike Leitao
  • Mike L
  • *
  • Posts: 6,722
  • Karma: +15/-5
Re: Most Nontriumphant Issues with Iskakku
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2008, 09:21:02 AM »
Now Sean,

Iskakku

Its a children of Gaia only fighting style meant to disarm or confuise an opponent.
Never is Iskakku used to kill someone.
The forms and the manuevers are almost an intimidation factor meant to try and get the enemy to think twice about attacking.  Its not meant to be a method to absoulutely destroy your opponent like say Klaiviskar.

Also hardly ever is Iskakku not used in conjunction with other coggie gifts like Strike the Air and Mercy.
Its not a Battle style but a defensive style.

Offline Mike

  • Mike Leitao
  • Mike L
  • *
  • Posts: 6,722
  • Karma: +15/-5
Re: Most Nontriumphant Issues with Iskakku
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2008, 09:24:02 AM »
Well never heard of North Wind.  I can be wrong sometimes ummm yeah alot but I havent heard of the style before and will dig out the 2nd edition book as its probably in there

Offline Torvald Magnusson

  • (Guest) Vance
  • *
  • Posts: 1,717
  • Karma: +1/-5
Re: Most Nontriumphant Issues with Iskakku
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2008, 10:01:27 AM »
It's all good man, not trying to be an ass, just trying to help.
Torvald "Phoenix Rider" Magnusson
Get of Fenris (Pure Breed x5)
Modi
Homid
Adren

Arianna_Fireau

  • Guest
Re: Most Nontriumphant Issues with Iskakku
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2008, 10:19:57 AM »
I thought Kalindo couldn't be used because there's no Partial Shifting in MET and Kalindo is /all about/ partial shifting? Just a question.

Offline Mike

  • Mike Leitao
  • Mike L
  • *
  • Posts: 6,722
  • Karma: +15/-5
Re: Most Nontriumphant Issues with Iskakku
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2008, 10:24:40 AM »
there was a conversion

Offline Torvald Magnusson

  • (Guest) Vance
  • *
  • Posts: 1,717
  • Karma: +1/-5
Re: Most Nontriumphant Issues with Iskakku
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2008, 10:29:38 AM »
Kat,

Quite true but many maneuvers can also be used with the metamorph merit as well as spending rage to shift and in the umbra shifting should not usually require a test.

*shrug*

it's all a new game to get used to.
Torvald "Phoenix Rider" Magnusson
Get of Fenris (Pure Breed x5)
Modi
Homid
Adren

Offline Ryan McKenna

  • (Guest) Jeremy
  • *
  • Posts: 1,350
  • Karma: +1/-2
Re: Most Nontriumphant Issues with Iskakku
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2008, 10:49:43 AM »
i played a MET game with partial shifting back when i was living in florida, it all depends on the STs/org.
Ryan "Razor Fang"  McKenna
Homid
Cliath
Modi
Get of Fenris
Ghost Wolves under Clashing Boom boom
Sept of the Hidden Flame
Pure Breed: 3 (Get of Fenris)

Offline Soothing Rain

  • (Guest)
  • *
  • Posts: 1,911
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • "Be excellent to each other"
Re: Most Nontriumphant Issues with Iskakku
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2008, 11:22:13 AM »
.............................

 :-\

Does anyone else have a problem with Mike's answer to my question?

Mike, I feel like you are dancing around my question, but I really don't want to get into an argument. The statements you make about Iskakku confuse me, though I agree that it is purely defensive and not meant to really hurt someone. That's why all the damage is bashing. I've never heard of using Iskakku in conjunction with the gifts you mentioned. How would that even work? Furthermore, you don't even really address the issues I brought up.

In Table Top, Iskakku is well put together, but in MET, some of the techniques make no sense. All I wanted to know is, well, what I wanted to know is stated in my first post. Can you please give me an answer? Thanks.

I'd also appreciate anyone else giving their two cents.
Kenny "Soothing Rain" Moor
Homid
Cliath
Child of Gaia
Ragabash
Shadow Lord Pure Breed x2
"In charge of" the Bed & Breakfast

"We will make whole."

-Deceased-

Offline Mike

  • Mike Leitao
  • Mike L
  • *
  • Posts: 6,722
  • Karma: +15/-5
Re: Most Nontriumphant Issues with Iskakku
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2008, 11:23:45 AM »
Gee I wonder why the HST gets pissed,
nice response Sean

Offline Mike

  • Mike Leitao
  • Mike L
  • *
  • Posts: 6,722
  • Karma: +15/-5
Re: Most Nontriumphant Issues with Iskakku
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2008, 11:28:43 AM »
I answered your question the techniques are a show nothing more you dont get uber amounts of bashing damage for these manuevers its all for show and nothing more.  The real skill comes in the STAFF.  Wanna do more damage get a bigger staff.

The Running and Jumping one lets you close diatnace in a fight in one round versus the two-three it would normally take


RAWR

Offline Torvald Magnusson

  • (Guest) Vance
  • *
  • Posts: 1,717
  • Karma: +1/-5
Re: Most Nontriumphant Issues with Iskakku
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2008, 11:42:32 AM »
Alrighty, 2 cents coming

Specialized fighting styles as given in Tabletop are interesting flavor and fun.

MET was written poorly and in a decade of WoD larping I have not seen a system implement them as well as the tabletop because of one core item. Even at it's best MET will never be a conversion true to tabletop. Sadly both systems are not compatible.

Even with the NWoD to LARP transition which is supposed to be a pure switch from one to the other has special case rules. Rules in LARP get sloppier the more you add, and usually work best when the players default to using good judgement in regards to making sure other players have a fun, enjoy the story and trust their GM's not to bone them.

The WoD is not about winning, it is about experiencing the story.

Additionally I would advocate items like this being moved to a private PM and not calling out someone within a post thread. a flame war or difference of oppinions will usually only result in added anger and no resolution.

Ultimately I think if there is a need for discussion or debate on this a neutral thread should be started and if there is a need to vote / discuss it I would be thrilled to participate. Lastly I would lean on those with the experience in the OWbN to use their interpretations which I suspect have existed for some time.

So please, the thoughts are good, the hope of a resolution is positive but your delivery sucked.

.02

-Vance
Torvald "Phoenix Rider" Magnusson
Get of Fenris (Pure Breed x5)
Modi
Homid
Adren

Offline Soothing Rain

  • (Guest)
  • *
  • Posts: 1,911
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • "Be excellent to each other"
Re: Most Nontriumphant Issues with Iskakku
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2008, 11:51:35 AM »
Thanks, Vance. You raise a lot of good points. I'm not trying to upset anyone. I was just bringing up issues that I had after actually sitting down and looking at the Iskakku maneuvers. Mike, I'm sorry if I sounded rude; I was just trying to ask a question. I would like this to be a neutral discussion, but apparently I upset you.

Let's please try to find a way to discuss this further, and I'd like the opportunities for others to add anything to the conversation. If this is something that is not up for discussion, just say so and I'll drop it. It will probably be accompanied by some grumbling, but I'll get over it. You're the HST and this is your game.

Again, thanks Vance for you two cents. I am glad you put them in.
Kenny "Soothing Rain" Moor
Homid
Cliath
Child of Gaia
Ragabash
Shadow Lord Pure Breed x2
"In charge of" the Bed & Breakfast

"We will make whole."

-Deceased-

Offline Mike

  • Mike Leitao
  • Mike L
  • *
  • Posts: 6,722
  • Karma: +15/-5
Re: Most Nontriumphant Issues with Iskakku
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2008, 01:25:49 PM »
One Trait - Attack and Block: Substitute Iskakku for Melee when using a staff in combat
[Speaks for itself, not only do you have your melee ability to retest but you also have you Iskakku retest]

Two Traits - Mahasu Qatu (Hand Smite): With a successful Physical Challenge (retest Iskakku), you may dislocate your attacker’s wrist (equivalent of one level of bashing damage). Until the damage is healed, that hand may not be used in combat.
[Disarm is very usefull and goes along with the purpose of Iskakku]

Two Traits – Tammabukku Istu Kur (Dragon Emerges from Mountain): With a successful Physical Challenge (retest Iskakku), once per combat, you may thrust your staff at your opponent’s face. The attack inflicts two levels of bashing damage.
[Free Head shot, no trait penalty.  Normal Head shot penalties to the victim would apply.  chop for eye shot etc.]

Three Traits – Tabalu Kur (Take Away the Land): By sweeping your staff, you can knock your opponent to the ground. Engage your opponent in a Static Physical Challenge against seven Traits (in the event of ties, compare you Iskakku score to his Athletics). With success, your opponent must fall to the ground. Getting back on his feat follows normal combat rules.
[Take down, pretty usefull]

Four Traits – Sepu Istu An (Foot from Heaven): This maneuver requires two actions to perform. You use your staff to vault yourself through the air, delivering a powerful kick to your target. You must first have running room, then make a Physical Challenge (retest Athletics) to make the vault. On landing, a second Physical Challenge (retest Brawl) is necessary to inflict the damage (which may be bashing or lethal depending on your form and Storyteller discretion).
[Allows the Garou to close distance without having to spend rage nor having to waste rounds as well as you get your normal Bashing damage appied to a kick]

Five Traits – Adannu Lukur Daku (Appointed Time of the Enemy’s Demise): This maneuver requires two actions. With your enemy’s first attack, make a challenge to parry the blow. With success, you may make a Physical Challenge (retest Iskakku) to attack. Success on your attack challenge allows you to strike the opponent on the back of the head with your staff, knocking them unconscious for the next three rounds.
[Obvious benefit]

Mercy is usually used with fetish Staffs that do Agg instead of Bashing.
Strike the air I think speaks for itself, and I would allow Iskakku to be the reste for this as its intimidation/attention grabbing


Offline Soothing Rain

  • (Guest)
  • *
  • Posts: 1,911
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • "Be excellent to each other"
Re: Most Nontriumphant Issues with Iskakku
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2008, 01:32:30 PM »
Thanks Mike. That answers all of my questions.  :)
Kenny "Soothing Rain" Moor
Homid
Cliath
Child of Gaia
Ragabash
Shadow Lord Pure Breed x2
"In charge of" the Bed & Breakfast

"We will make whole."

-Deceased-

Offline Soothing Rain

  • (Guest)
  • *
  • Posts: 1,911
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • "Be excellent to each other"
Re: Most Nontriumphant Issues with Iskakku
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2008, 11:39:02 PM »
Err....um....another question. >.<

[Free Head shot, no trait penalty.  Normal Head shot penalties to the victim would apply.  chop for eye shot etc.]

This means what exactly? What are the 'penalties to the victim'? Does the person hit lose an action? Does the person attacking get a free hit because their opponent is disoriented or maybe the victim has a -1 or -2 trait penalty? Also, does an eye shot blind someone or something? Can I have specifics? What about breaking someone's nose, will they have trouble smelling stuff?

I'd really like this to not be 'you do something that looks cool without the looking cool penalty', but I'll just give it a rest if I can get specifics. Thanks.  :)
Kenny "Soothing Rain" Moor
Homid
Cliath
Child of Gaia
Ragabash
Shadow Lord Pure Breed x2
"In charge of" the Bed & Breakfast

"We will make whole."

-Deceased-

Offline Lucky Wolf

  • Joe Sabella
  • (Guest) Joe Sabella
  • *
  • Posts: 1,516
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • 'ever vigilant, the Wendigo awaits for the wind
Re: Most Nontriumphant Issues with Iskakku
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2008, 11:43:22 PM »
With all do respect, a good portion of this came up with SR was using Iskakku on WP at the training grounds and we were unsure how to rule on this. So I am partially to blame.
Lucky Wolf (Wapi Tala)
Homid Philodox Wendigo Athro
Eldest Wendigo
Beta to the Eldest Philodox
Beta to the Master of the Challenge

" Who am I? I'm the guy that does his job. You must be the other guy."

Offline Mike

  • Mike Leitao
  • Mike L
  • *
  • Posts: 6,722
  • Karma: +15/-5
Re: Most Nontriumphant Issues with Iskakku
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2008, 08:39:55 AM »
it depends on where you hit them

nose shot they become -2 traits on smelling
ear shot hearing
eye shot seeing

this is only for 2 rounds


Offline Soothing Rain

  • (Guest)
  • *
  • Posts: 1,911
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • "Be excellent to each other"
Re: Most Nontriumphant Issues with Iskakku
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2008, 01:24:04 PM »
Ah. Thanks, Mike.  :)
Kenny "Soothing Rain" Moor
Homid
Cliath
Child of Gaia
Ragabash
Shadow Lord Pure Breed x2
"In charge of" the Bed & Breakfast

"We will make whole."

-Deceased-