Influence changes

[Taweret]

I've just been told that the way some of Influence was being handled is changing, including learning Rites via Occult.

This announcement was made at game, so could an ST please post what the new procedure is as I and maybe some others weren't there to hear it.

Thank you.

[Arianna_Fireau]

Influence was never designed to be a hard and fast system of "Spend X points, get X effect". The books themselves give examples of suggestions. It's about push and pull.

The Influence System itself has not changed. Spending Pips will put things in motion, in accordance with the books. There has been negligence on this in the past, allowing some stuff to be handwaved that, honestly, shouldn't have been. To use Occult as an example, It is unreasonable to assume that the Occult community of a small town Cape Cod Town has access to Every Garou Ritual Ever at the snap of a finger. That is not to say that they won't be able to find them, but it will take time, and resources.

Spending Pips does not always one hundred percent assure that that you will get what you want, or get it in the downtime you posted it in. There are usually things going on that PCs are not aware of that can change things. Not everything will always work as you expect it to, and some things may not work at all. Remember that Garou, as a whole, are among the bottom of the totem pole influence wise. If you try to just win by throwing more pips at something through a blunt "brute force" attempt, you will probably fail. Vampires, mages, and most other Supernaturals have more Influence than Garou. But smart and sideways uses of Influence will be much more successful. If you are unable to get through with something, perhaps try coming at it from another angle.

[Taweret]

Thank you.

In the future, please consider the option of Influences as a thing to help drive plot forward. Not something that will ruin it. Some players might feel blunt force is needed because they are getting no results otherwise.

Puzzles, intrigue, hints, clues, and mystery are fun. Getting the feeling that one is slamming their face against a brick wall is not.

[Michael Cirelli]

My only thought on the new perspective on the system to the STs is to be vigilant.  If you want to have influence take time thats great but keep up with it so people aren't left hanging.  Don't use the idea of itll take time as the same thing as it doesn't work. Be aware of what is going with the influences.

[Arianna_Fireau]

Players are free to ask for updates every Downtime. If asked, Influence people will give updates as to what they're doing. I don't mind answering questions like that.

[Michael Cirelli]

The more a PC can interact with a given scenario the more fun they have, when they keep running against implacable barriers and are less able to interact with a plot it stops being  game plot and becomes fanfiction.

Influence is a secondary way for PCs to interact with plot, it has been my experience that if a PC asks for X but it is either an issue with the plot or simply way out there, give a PC Y instead.  Y may not be what they ask for but it will help them interact with a plot more and may lead to X.

For example lets say alice wants a rite so she drops influence 5 to get this rite, well we are in ass crack MA so her influence comes back and says, "ok I did some digging and while we don't have it I read in this book that the rite can be learned from this oracle at the place where land meets sky."

Voila plot! the player feels content her influence was relevant the ST got to build some plot and everyone is happy all around. A good ST will then work this minor plot point with alice into some larger plot maybe this  place where the land meets the sky is also the site for a battle that our buddy the fenrir skald was looking into.  Suddenly all these threads start to come together into a plot.

[Kikea]

Since you're a new Vigilant Light player, you may not have seen this:

http://rageacrossthecape.com/forums/index.php?action=pages;sa=6

Kat is now the sole ST in charge of Background Stuff, including Influences.  We trust her in that role, just as she trusts me with fae and spirit things, she trusts Josh Sheena with Merits and Flaws, etc, etc.  She'll be the one tracking and responding to Influence use, and she'll be the one doing plots of the type you suggested, Joe, if she feels it's warranted.

All that said, I have no issue with her changes to how Occult Influence works.  I am not a fan of nearly any form of "I write one sentence in my XP request, and I get this Cool New Toy". 

I've heard other complaints from players about the changes in the staff and the changes that we're implementing in our new positions.  It is always tricky when things change, and you don't know what to expect, but please, I beg of you all, try to focus on the positive.  Positive changes you can expect from me, for instance, include more appearances of your Tribal spirits in everyday life, and merely getting to an Umbral Realm will be an epic journey that will earn you Renown.  As a player and as an ST, I'm really excited to see what the next few games are going to be like.  I hope you all are, too.

[Michael Cirelli]

What has garnered this trust?

As a player from what I have seen of her STing as well as her play style I am damn near terrified.  For the sake of brevity we will go post Arriana.

Bella was a violation of your own house rules that was allowed, she grabbed for something shiny and she got it, despite the fact that it violated house rules, genre and didn't make any sense.

Then she claims a trial position and the BG coord starts looking into things and the PC get shelved.  Putting aside the challenges she received for eldest BG that she didn't even response to in nay meaningful way.

As for her as an ST do you know what I hear from a great many people? X thing doesn't work in a Kat plot, wether it be tracking, influence or gifts....

If your reaction as an ST to player doing something you don't want or aren't prepared for is well X doesn't work thats a problem with the ST.

Kat has been there a while no doubt but her longevity shuldn't make her immune to criticism nor should she get any special treatment.  Yet here we are?

Please tell me what garners this trust the new administration has put in her?

[Arianna_Fireau]

I've spoken with the Bone Gnawer Co-ord repeatedly, and after some initial confusions and misinformation was cleared up, there was no problem. I even talked to him about taking her out of play, which happened because I didn't have time to both play the PC and Staff.

You're acting under a lot of misinformation and gossip, which I respect because it happens. You are allowed to think what you want, and if you do not want to interact with my Storylines and/or deal with Influence, that's fine. It's a player choice that I respect and will not fault people for.

Sometimes gifts fail because there are several canonical powers/abilities/shields that make gifts fail. You cannot track someone if you don't have requisite information about them. You cannot track someone not in the same Realm as you. Sometimes Influence fails because other people spend Influence to make it fail. They don't always fail, but sometimes they do. Just like sometimes when enemies try to do things to you/find you they just fail because of safeguards the Garou have taken.

Most people that interact meaningfully in my plots have had fun in the past. People that don't really get involved but stand on the periphery complain from time to time. That's their prerogative. All criticism is taken into account, on both the side of players and STs.

Any changes I have made/implemented I went through the HST first. All plots and most Storylines go through the HST first. The staff is working as a cohesive unit, or at least trying to, in the future moving onwards.

If you would like to interact with my STing firsthand rather than just going on what other people are saying, you are free to get involved. If you don't want to, that's fine too.

[Jerry Castillo]

Okay, wow.  That's some...pretty serious character assassination right there, Joe.  I can understand that you may have had some problems with the ways Kat plays or runs things in the past.  It's good of you, and quite appropriate, for you to bring those concerns up for discussion, especially if they're affecting your enjoyment of the game.  We're here to have fun, after all, and if something is affecting your experience I applaud you for making your opinions known to the ST staff.

However, I for one find your tone and choice of venue extremely rude.  Your language explicitly and implicitly attacks Kat, as a person, rather than respectfully questioning those ideas and choices of hers that you disagree with.  Attacking people personally is NEVER constructive, and doing so on a public forum in this way is, quite frankly, approaching libel.  If Kat's playstyle and notions of genre make you as a player uncomfortable, that is certainly something you should take up with the ST staff, but doing so by publicly defaming her character (in multiple senses of the word) seems to me to be a poor decision.

I, for one, would appreciate knowing which rules Bella violated, and can also attest that I have had tracking, Influence, and Gifts all fail me in plots run by multiple ST's, and even at other games.  Sometimes, the bad guys know your tricks and prepare for them.  That is not lazy ST'ing, it's smart NPC-playing.  Everyone who walks into game has a slightly different notion of what Werewolf is about and how things should work, and our ST staff puts in COUNTLESS hours of work, for NO compensation and often at the expense of being able to play the game themselves, so that we can have something to do.

In conclusion, Joe, I have always enjoyed playing with you and have found you to be a cool and perfectly reasonable guy.  It distresses me that you've chosen to handle your dissatisfaction with Kat's past choices by publicly defaming her and making sweeping accusations, rather than by talking to Kat one-on-one about your concerns or approaching the ST staff respectfully to voice your concerns in a more appropriate setting.  I hope that this can lead to a productive discussion, because it sounds like you and other people you have spoken to are having your experience negatively impacted.  I agree that no one should be immune to criticism, but it is possible to criticize the decisions of others in a respectful manner, and I believe we should all strive to do so.

[Michael Cirelli]

ok first things first under no circumstances is this personal, this is not a personal attack. I am willing to admit that she could well have been a victim of poor timing on certain things, I am skeptical but its possible.  Jerry and Im using the PCs name because I haven't differentiated between matt and mac yet in my defense it took me 6 months to get Rick and Vance down.

Jerry I understand your defense, please realize Im not doing this with malice these are decisions she has made circumstances that she has created that are cause for concern.  Things that highlight qualities in her style of STing and playing that draw into question at least for me her ability to handle a large portion of the players sheets.

If I wanted to go personal Jerry it wouldn't serve a purpose, I'd feel good for a bit but it isn't constructive.

The golden rule of any ST, GM, DM what have you is as ST you can do pretty much whatever you want, its your world and part of being an ST. However the other part of that people of tend forget is just because you can doesn't mean you should.

So people have been complaining PK said so.  Is there not enough people speaking out? are the right people not speaking out? Why aren't they being taken into account? If people are complaining why is that an ineptus for you to expand her influence?

[Arianna_Fireau]

Clarification: My responsibilities haven't changed.

I have always written Pack plot, and have been doing Influence for.. almost a year now? I was hesitant to touch the system that had been implemented with Mike, namely "Spend Pips = Get toys on sheet!"

Recently I talked to the ST staff en masse about concerns, and we agreed that Influence could get a slight shift towards Realism and Roleplay over just spending points. It's a system that has essentially been ignored since the game was created, and we wanted to change that.

That said, if anyone wants a personal clarification or reasoning for a way a personal thing has happened, they're free to contact me personally and I will either explain or respond with "There is a plot reasoning that has not resolved yet". No one has bothered to ask.

[Jerry Castillo]

No offense taken Re:names, Joe.  Remembering people's names is something nobody is really good at.

I'm glad to hear you say that your comments are not personal.  I apologize if I misread your intent or misjudged your tone.  When I see phrases like "I am damn near terrified," "Please tell me what garners this trust," and "she grabbed for something shiny and she got it,"  I parse them as, respectively, "This person scares me," "I believe that this person is untrustworthy" and "I think that this person has acted like a spoiled child," none of which are particularly constructive and all of which are personal attacks.

That said, if I merely misjudged your tone and the implications of the aforementioned comments, then I apologize for calling your behavior into question.

[Mass Trauma NPC]

@Joe: 50 points from House Wyrmfoe for clumsy political maneuvers.

BTW: I've now taken to judging my tribes/house via hogwarts points system. You've been notified.

[Michael Cirelli]

yes take them from wyrmfoe for I am not wyrmfoe mwahahahahaha

[Mass Trauma NPC]

yes take them from wyrmfoe for I am not wyrmfoe mwahahahahaha

Correct. The Murderous Grand Duke in charge of you is. That is how you politically assassinate someone, son.

[Arthur A Dennison]

@Joe: 50 points from House Wyrmfoe for clumsy political maneuvers.

BTW: I've now taken to judging my tribes/house via hogwarts points system. You've been notified.

House Unbreakable Hearth would like to formally withdraw its 'Kill them until they roll Silver Fang' policy.

[Kikea]

Whoa, lots posted to this thread while I was off enjoying Hot Native American Werewolf Boys (who disappointingly kept their shirts on this movie). 

Sorry Joe, you'll have to talk to Marc about why Bella was allowed to start the game with that sheet/background.  It was not my responsibility, nor did I have any knowledge of it until it was a done deal.  Yes, the CBC freaked out a little when she heard about it.  The CBC also freaked out a little about a certain Silver Fang Metis Galliard, for his/your own genre-bending.  I had no idea that Silver Fang Metis were an extreme rarity, nor that your original concept was based so closely on a famous fictional character.  But things got changed a little, there's now some distance from the book-character that inspired you, and two weeks later, a Hidden Flame player got a second Silver Fang Metis accepted.  Weird things happen, and if we stay hung up about them for ever, we'll miss out on lots of good stuff.

What Kat said holds true for me as well: if you want to stay the hell away from my plots/spirit stuff/fae stuff because you distrust me as a Storyteller or you hate doing scenes over AIM or at game instead of the forums, that is your decision and will not make me angry.  I can respect that I am not a perfect Storyteller for everyone.  One can't please all the people all the time, and I have a darker, harsher, more twisted take on the World of Darkness than some.  We are a team of Storytellers now, headed by a fresh HST who has his head fully in the game.  There will be lots to do over the next few months, and I for one am really excited about all of it, both as a player and as an ST.  I hope you all are, too. 

[Conor (Former ST)]

...the BG coord starts looking into things and the PC get shelved.

I don't currently have the time or energy to respond to most things that you said, Joe, and it's mostly been well said by others, but I want to make it very clear that this part is flat-out not true.

I know this because the Bone Gnawer Tribal Narrator told me so.

[Jack Byzantine]

The Only active Shadow Lord player is now making notes on this. Dissension? Magnificent.