Author Topic: Mighty confused (Read 11223 times)

Alexander Amarandus van Bokkelen · « **on:** December 01, 2008, 09:40:49 PM »

http://rageacrossthecape.com/forums/index.php?topic=3595.0

Quote

Fostern:Â Receive the Might retest on any physical challenge.Â The Might retest is always your last retest.Â Your opponent can still cancel a Might retest with Might, or with the appropriate Ability, if they have not yet bid that ability for a retest.

At-game I saw multiple people, some of whom were staff, say that you couldn't use Might to dodge.Â This is definitely true of the Potence power, but is it true of the Fostern power?

I'm not trying to change anything, but I went to look it up and it conflicts with what I remember from last game.

Mass Trauma NPC · « **Reply #1 on:** December 01, 2008, 09:49:32 PM »

I'd like an official clarification as well. I just bit my tongue cause TÃ½rhialm walks through enemies without might anyways.

Torvald Magnusson · « **Reply #2 on:** December 01, 2008, 09:52:52 PM »

Don't tempt them Rick, or you die first...

Soothing Rain · « **Reply #3 on:** December 01, 2008, 09:55:01 PM »

Hmm. Good point. Looking at the way the Rank bonus is written on the site, it looks like you can use Might for any physical challenge, which means attacking, dodging or soaking. I often confuse it with the Might you get from Potence, but it seems to be different for the Fostern Rank bonus.

I actually remember, if I'm not mistaken, hearing two different arguments for Might at game. I remember people saying Might couldn't be used to dodge and others arguing that it can be used for any physical challenge. According to what's written there, the latter is apparently how it works here.

Mass Trauma NPC · « **Reply #4 on:** December 01, 2008, 09:55:56 PM »

C'mon, it's not like they're gonna toss something the size of an ocean liner at us. Or make said beast live off the coast of our packlands. And then have it leave it's left overs on our doorstep. They would never do that.

Soothing Rain · « **Reply #5 on:** December 01, 2008, 09:58:53 PM »

Of course not, that would be mean. This is a happy game full of sunshine and gumdrops.

Alexander Amarandus van Bokkelen · « **Reply #6 on:** December 01, 2008, 10:00:45 PM »

As quoted above, it works on attacking, dodging, soaking, and tough-to-remove stains.

Mike · « **Reply #7 on:** December 02, 2008, 08:11:14 AM »

I'll discuss with staff and more then likely throw it up for vote.

Keep in mind though anything on the good side (subjective who is good)
happens on the bad side (again subjective)

Justin Northwood · « **Reply #8 on:** December 02, 2008, 02:50:52 PM »

I think this was a flaw in the rule text, although we did talk about this when we came up with that house rule that was cited in the first post... It just didn't get translated very well when I came up with the wording to define the staff ruling. The staff will discuss, but here's my two cents... You can't Might retest on a dodge maneuver, because it just doesn't make sense. Might is all about brute strength. You can be "Mighty" enough to make a physical action that bids most strength/stamina related phys. traits (i.e. soaking - "Mightily" tough enough to take it, or clawing - "Mightily" ferocious enough to land a hit. Using a dex. related phys. trait doesn't really "fit" with the idea of Might... For example, you can't be "Mightily" quick enough to dodge out of the way. Think of it this way.. could you be strong enough to be quick enough to get out of the way or something? I think the ambiguity here is exacerbated by the fact that a lot of players (not all) are in the habit of saying what they're doing without actually bidding the applicable trait. For example "I'm dodging" vs. "I'm quick enough to dodge out of the way." If you're not in the habit of using a trait adjective to describe what you are doing, then all physical actions just sort of blend together.

Torvald Magnusson · « **Reply #9 on:** December 02, 2008, 08:50:44 PM »

So then in short might can be used to retest a Strength or Stamina related test.

Justin Northwood · « **Reply #10 on:** December 02, 2008, 08:52:24 PM »

Yes... I tend to be a bit verbose... I can't help it :-)

Still, the staff will discuss this at our next ST meeting... More to come.

Ryan McKenna · « **Reply #11 on:** December 05, 2008, 03:18:46 PM »

So no might retest on using guns then, well thats good to know. Right? Unless jabbing the gun into the air mightily speeds up the rounds.

Kiara · « **Reply #12 on:** December 05, 2008, 03:50:29 PM »

So how would a (completely ficticious) fostern without stanima or strength traits get might? I mean comeone doesnt that make the advantage to people playing ahrouns. Should it be valuable to just people who use those things?

Ryan McKenna · « **Reply #13 on:** December 05, 2008, 03:52:35 PM »

then they arent a very good garou since they spent years training as a cub and as a cliath and somehow failed to build some muscle mass.

Kiara · « **Reply #14 on:** December 05, 2008, 03:58:15 PM »

No what I mean from a mechanics point is if a Garou doesnt base their usefulness on brute strength what real use will might be to them?

Arianna_Fireau · « **Reply #15 on:** December 05, 2008, 04:02:12 PM »

"I am ferocious enough to empty a clip into your head." Might warrant a might retest.

Alexander Amarandus van Bokkelen · « **Reply #16 on:** December 05, 2008, 04:03:45 PM »

Any Garou in non-Homid form is guaranteed at least a couple strength/stamina traits, but the sort of question you're asking, Steph, is one of the reasons I asked for clarification.

Ryan McKenna · « **Reply #17 on:** December 05, 2008, 04:11:39 PM »

Might doesn't make you shoot faster or bullets do more damage. Rage makes you shoot faster, unless you have a bolt action.

Justin Northwood · « **Reply #18 on:** December 05, 2008, 04:28:34 PM »

I still need to discuss this with the rest of the staff, but in the meantime, to answer the question that was just posed, yes, it is possible to have Might with no strength-related physical traits on your sheet (as rare as that would be).

When popping a war form, among the bonus physicals you receive, there are bound to be some strength-related traits throw in there.

Ryan McKenna · « **Reply #19 on:** December 05, 2008, 04:41:23 PM »

Can I use Might to retest the Small Pox blanket attack against Wendigo and Uktenna?

Eset · « **Reply #20 on:** December 05, 2008, 04:47:55 PM »

GLARES ANGRILY!!!!!

Ryan McKenna · « **Reply #21 on:** December 05, 2008, 04:58:35 PM »

I also have a Crack Attack for use against Bonegnawers, a Carpet Attack for Furies, Childrens Books against the Fenrir, Violent video games for the CoG, a helocopter for the red talon, the silver fangs are all already insane, the stargazers just get ethnic cleansing, fianna get detox, shadowlords get a reality tv show and the glass walkers get the Blue Screen of DEATH! All with a might retest!

Baron Tarl · « **Reply #22 on:** December 05, 2008, 05:01:24 PM »

Let me share my personal experiences with "Might"

Why was it called might cause in ye olden times when the Red Book Ruled and the Re Star First appeared in the sky,

okay dramatics and flashbacks aside.

Its called might cause well that's what they named it back then and saying "Might" is a lot cooler sounding retets then "Fostern"

in second ed it was usable with any STrength related challenge. Ie i'm Brutal Ferocoius etc ot hit you in the face. Its primary purpose was to add emphasis that a garou's strength is in Ripping your fucken head off.

That ye brief history on legends and Might.

Ryan McKenna · « **Reply #23 on:** December 05, 2008, 05:02:44 PM »

So damn you and your descriptive adjectives!

PEBE · « **Reply #24 on:** December 07, 2008, 12:08:08 PM »

I have to agree with Marc and Tarl.. if you are Bidding a trait that reflects the MIGHTily power inherent to a Garou, then yes, Might can be used. Tough enough to take it is an example, because 'tough' is technically a STR trait, though it also works for soaking..

As far as Firearms and Might... since shooting a gun has nothing to do with a Garou's physical prowess (it's just squeezing a trigger), I would propose that the gun would need a special ability (like Spray/Mass Trauma/etc) that would allow the use of Might with it.. even with Potence, you can't bid potence on guns!

But, these are just my thoughts and I will bring them up at the next ST meeting... I want to keep things fair, but realistic (or as close to it as possible in the World of Darkness)

Baron Tarl · « **Reply #25 on:** December 07, 2008, 04:59:29 PM »

This is primarily because Joe, many players mistake "tough" for a stamina related trait instead of a strength related trait.

Why in my game due to the natural english use of the word tough and how it fits in with the system, we houseruled Tough to be a stamina related trait as opposed to a strength related one due to the nature of the fact one would rarely ever state the following

"I'm tough enough to kick you in the balls"
"I'm tough enough to rip your head off"
"I'm tough enough to bitchslap you"

Tough in its natural connonation represents physical endurance and stamina not ability to walk up and slap someone in the face.

Dan

PEBE · « **Reply #26 on:** December 08, 2008, 11:46:27 AM »

Cool, appreciate the input..

Beyond that house rule on 'Tough', are there any that impact Might and help us form our own house ruling?

From what I gather, you only allow it for STR-traits, therefore no soaking.. any other tidbits that would help us in this?

Alexander Amarandus van Bokkelen · « **Reply #27 on:** December 08, 2008, 12:01:36 PM »

I look at it like this - which of the following actions are Fostern (and above) inherently better at?

"I ferociously slash at your ribcage."
"I gracefully kick you in the nuts."
"I quickly fire off a shot at your leg."
"I'm determined to shoot you in the head."
"I nimbly dodge your attack."
"I'm too resilient for that to get anywhere."
"I'm so intimidating you can't look me in the eye."
"I'm so brawny you can't look me in the eye."

A new player can get to fostern fast enough (4 games seems to be par?) that pretty much everyone has the advantage, so when it comes to fairness it almost doesn't matter what it is - 8 bonus traits for Crinos is powerful, but we all get it.

Do you want people spending time in combat to think of ways to phrase things so that they get that extra retest? There's something to be said for "clever and creative play gets you a cookie," but it's also going to slow things down a bit.

Arianna_Fireau · « **Reply #28 on:** December 08, 2008, 12:06:00 PM »

Well, technically, by the book, if they take too long thinking of some way to manipulate words to get the Might retest, you can declare surprise /anyways/ (:

Ryan McKenna · « **Reply #29 on:** December 08, 2008, 01:46:17 PM »

Bah, don't forget the "I'm agile enough to pants you."

PEBE · « **Reply #30 on:** December 08, 2008, 02:17:34 PM »

How about "I bid Gravity to Lithely pile drive you!" If we're going to get all cracked out about this, could I use might for that?

I mean come on, people.. the more this goes on, the less open I feel to other possibilities.. Everywhere I've read, including the Vampire books for Potence, it's STRENGTH only... so if we want to get technical, that's how it's going to be..

Torvald Magnusson · « **Reply #31 on:** December 08, 2008, 02:23:19 PM »

Well how about this. We should have guidelines like Might bay be used to retest an appropriate physical challenge. There is a provision in the rules in which a player can not accept your rebid as it is not appropriate and they can work it out themselves.

The root of the whole MET system is to let smart adults administer their own conflicts to avoid ST intervention.

Ryan McKenna · « **Reply #32 on:** December 08, 2008, 02:24:10 PM »

Now if only we could find smart adults.

Justin Northwood · « **Reply #33 on:** December 08, 2008, 03:10:13 PM »

Quote from: Torvald Magnusson on December 08, 2008, 02:23:19 PM

Well how about this. We should have guidelines like Might bay be used to retest an appropriate physical challenge. There is a provision in the rules in which a player can not accept your rebid as it is not appropriate and they can work it out themselves.

The root of the whole MET system is to let smart adults administer their own conflicts to avoid ST intervention.

I have no problem with this, and think it's a good idea, but when an issue comes up in the future and something is decided to not be an appropriate physical challenge, it will come up again, with one or more of the players involved in an effort to clarify. This is a good solution, if people would be willing to live with it's ambiguity.

Ryan McKenna · « **Reply #34 on:** December 08, 2008, 03:19:36 PM »

Yay a solution!

Lucky Wolf · « **Reply #35 on:** December 08, 2008, 11:02:19 PM »

Food for thought.

What if we kept Might as it is ( though personally I agree with the other Joe on this and that it should only be strength related) tht it starts out with strength related traits as fostern and that with each rank after foster, you choose another physical based catergory?

P.S. If you really want to get wacky on Might, how about for a social challenge so I can retest might for " I'm too sexy for my (fill in the blank)."

Soothing Rain · « **Reply #36 on:** December 08, 2008, 11:06:48 PM »

Well, as a Wendigo, you aren't too sexy, but too bad ass for pants. I suggest giving Wendigo a one trait bonus every time they bid 'bad ass' in a pants related situation.

Eset · « **Reply #37 on:** December 08, 2008, 11:10:58 PM »

this would only count in interactions with wendigo and Nuisha where the Coyote-changer is trying to steal the wendigo's pants... then he can retest. "I'm too Mightily bad-ass for pants"

Lucky Wolf · « **Reply #38 on:** December 08, 2008, 11:16:14 PM »

I am all for it.

Also, the only good thing I can see with Might being used for every physcial challenge other than dodge ( other than the obvious uberness that it is) is that it helps a garou compete with other supernaturals that can obtain the ability to win on ties.

I use to play in a Werewolf Larp in which the rank advantages were mostly like the 2nd Edition Book and it worked mostly fine.

Crinos fist did lethal at rank one and Â all garou gained an extra health level while in crinos
Might for strength at rank two
Bomb for strength that had to be declared at rank three
An extra health level at rank four ( this was later changed in that game to either the health level or extra hand to hand damage)
Win on ties with strength at rank five ( I wasnt a fan of this, but I did kill an elder by myself when I was fostern, so anything is possible
No one can retest against you on strength at rank six ( no one ever had this, which I was GLAD)

Also, all these were only avaliable in Crinos. I am not clear on how this game does it. Can we use our rank advantaged in our other forms?

Soothing Rain · « **Reply #39 on:** December 08, 2008, 11:20:38 PM »

I've been able to, but I'm not sure if that is a definite 'yes'.

Arianna_Fireau · « **Reply #40 on:** December 09, 2008, 06:05:01 AM »

Yes, you can. Also the bomb does not need to be declared.

Andreiko Eferiev · « **Reply #41 on:** December 09, 2008, 07:16:20 AM »

Quote from: Arianna on December 09, 2008, 06:05:01 AM

Yes, you can. Also the bomb does not need to be declared.

I'm not sure it's worth too much thought. Statistically, the Bomb only helps if you lose on ties (or if your opponent has the Bomb).

PEBE · « **Reply #42 on:** December 09, 2008, 08:18:48 AM »

OK, since this topic is tangently traveling off topic, I'll summarize how it's going to work for now:

If they players cannot mutually agree on whether Might is an APPLICABLE retest in their given scenario, it will be up to the discretion of the ST in charge of the scene to make an official call.

Justin Northwood · « **Reply #43 on:** December 14, 2008, 04:18:02 PM »

After staff discussion, rules for the use of Might have been updated and clarified as indicated in the revised Rank Bonuses house rule posting.

News:

Author Topic: Mighty confused (Read 11223 times)

Arianna_Fireau

Arianna_Fireau

Arianna_Fireau