Adding abilities to trait comparisons

[Berek (ST)]

For discussion on adding ability ratings to traits when comparing on ties. Should we do it? How should we do it?

[Travis West]

We have done this at Hidden Flame for over a year. It works well for everyone. It makes highly trained mortals more dangerous, and allowing a better chance to overbid your average citizen. Also, it makes individuals with level 5 abilities far more powerful and worthy of being "the best in the world".

It's genre-helping. Also, certain abilities like awareness which you are likely to only use a handful of times at a given game, being able to add your rating makes more sense and makes purchasing.g esoteric abilities worth it.

[Nike 'Slays the Patriarchy' Strilakos]

the issue i have is that it also raises the base comparison, and it by that feature makes having just 1 dot in an ability bad.  you gotta have 2, or you are bleow the +2 to diff that was done.  it is a feature of the HF sistem i really really dislike

[Travis West]

Here's why you should reevaluate your dislike:

1) Having two dots in an ability means you are competent in that ability.  Thus, in a modified world where everyone now has additional traits, instead of everything becoming relatively easier for those who are untrained and drastically easier for those who are trained, the world instead gets a little tougher.

2) Most static difficulties max out at 10 traits which a fortunate cub can best.  Additional, form traits and bonuses can allow a cub to far exceed even the most difficult static challenges in the published material.  Because published static difficulties are so low, nearly any character can overbid most gifts and rites with a competent understanding (2 dots) in a given ability.  To balance the game to compensate for these additional traits, +2 was added so that everyone wouldn't then get both additional traits and a retest on all gift activations and rites.

[Nike 'Slays the Patriarchy' Strilakos]

form does not add to my mentals   yet we compare them. 

i honestly jsut think there is no need to do this.  i would much much rather allow us to follow the rules and do the other hting, instead of modifying stuff

[Travis West]

Untrue!  Adorable lupus get a +2 bonus in all perception related challenges!  Only the adorable ones...

Personally; with Jason's rules, there is a caveat- though he likes redundancy (for whatever reason).

Adding abilities to traits comes with a notable exception: You cannot add your ability if it is not possible for your opponent to add an ability.  It would make sense to keep static difficulties the same, provided in static challenges you cannot add your ability rating (since the World does not have an ability to add).  Does that make more sense?

[Kiara]

I like this because it adds flavor and depth to a game in a way more of things dont really work.

I dislike it because it makes it harder for STs to calculate when running combats on the fly especially if they don't have sheets necessarily prepped. I also dislike it because it puts a larger gap between old and new players. Not only does that new cliath have less traits and less gifts but now they are calling even smaller comparative things in a challenge with a long running character.

[Nike 'Slays the Patriarchy' Strilakos]

your negative for this is one that resonates with me alot.  it is a big part of why i dont like it as well.

Like Tom i have played for a while with this rule in HF.  and i am not a fan of it there at all.

[Travis West]

True, Steph. That's the give an take, however. However,  in direct competition with older characters, a Fostern with Melee x5 is actually far more likely to win a test against an Athro with dodge x1.

Conversely, without adding abilities, the Athro will win that matchup much more often.

But absolutely spot of for the STs. It is harder...

[Conor (Former ST)]

I like this because it adds flavor and depth to a game in a way more of things dont really work.

I dislike it because it makes it harder for STs to calculate when running combats on the fly especially if they don't have sheets necessarily prepped. I also dislike it because it puts a larger gap between old and new players. Not only does that new cliath have less traits and less gifts but now they are calling even smaller comparative things in a challenge with a long running character.

These are my opinions precisely.  I like the detail this adds, but I feel like the slowdown involved in extra math might make it not worthwhile.

[Marc (Admin)]

Ditto

I like this because it adds flavor and depth to a game in a way more of things dont really work.

I dislike it because it makes it harder for STs to calculate when running combats on the fly especially if they don't have sheets necessarily prepped. I also dislike it because it puts a larger gap between old and new players. Not only does that new cliath have less traits and less gifts but now they are calling even smaller comparative things in a challenge with a long running character.

These are my opinions precisely.  I like the detail this adds, but I feel like the slowdown involved in extra math might make it not worthwhile.

[Seven Mountains]

IMO adding additional traits to the total is only a pain for math, obviously more so for NPC's for Narrators etc. On the PC side it only truly matters when overbids come into play as a PC which already outmatches another PC will not "more outmatch" a PC. you still win on RPS 1/3 or the time, you still retest abilities the same.

Trait totals would be equal most of the time for similar characters, most people forget their form traits, or their weapon traits, or bonus traits for talens, or traits for a pack tactic, or traits for a totem, or traits for a gift, or traits for cover, or traits for minor rites, or traits for blah blah blah... so in the end +3-5 traits against an untrained combatant really doesn't throw off a curve for anyone other than those people who care about the minutiae and are looking to stay on the top bleeding edge of traits.

Those folks are in this game based on my experience the very very few of which I am one and know of very few others. Besides, anything which encourages people to remember to bid negative traits against people to get them to lose traits faster out of necessity I am all for...

[Kiara]

You know Vance...I know you are saying this thing and you might actually believe it but I totally watched the Math involved with Torvold for years and I call BS.

[Seven Mountains]

Torvald just had a ridiculous number of armor levels and I almost never lost at RPS. Check your memories

Also, I never forget about a single trait, I remember every bonus when playing an Ahroun thrown against insurmountable odds in a game designed to kill me at every turn when I have to stare down Green Dragon with nothing but a a wonderful pack, a Fetish Axe and my swinging cod;)

And there were PC's in Hidden Flame and RAtC that could have killed Torvald in the snap of a finger in 2-3 rounds and there was nothing I could have done about it. The bonus 3-5 traits wouldn't have changed that.

Now I play a Ragabash who is very squishy and still believe what I said.

I still almost never lose at RPS.