Persuasion

[Conor (Former ST)]

There was once a house rule posted in RATC that the fluffy aspects of the Homid Gift Persuasion:

In addition to the game-mechanical effect, your words are more influential
than usual on the roleplaying level, and Storytellers should work with players to make
the use of Persuasion clear in play.

...were null and void, and the Gift was purely for bonus social traits here.

I think this is a lost opportunity for fun, and unless Matt cared to instruct me otherwise, I would enjoy giving PCs the option to do/say/get away with moderate ridiculous things in scenes I run when they deploy this Gift.

[Nike 'Slays the Patriarchy' Strilakos]

i dont think i ever knew we DIDNT do the "more weight" thing here...

[Matt (HST)]

I am all about this...vs. NPC's. It should be just as effective against PC's, theoretically, but I think there are some mucky boundary issues about telling people "no you HAVE to listen to what they're saying and RP it." I think that taking the chance to actually let your character be convinced by Persuasion where they might not otherwise be convinced can make for interesting RP, and that should be not only allowed but commended. However, I don't think I'm comfortable with a rule saying that people have to let other PC's dictate their opinions, reactions, etc. with the use of a Basic Gift. Even more powerful Gifts like Mastery or Head Games don't actually let you change someone's mind, and I think that in the end each player should remain the final authority on what their PC thinks, Gifts or no Gifts.

[Nike 'Slays the Patriarchy' Strilakos]

I am all about this...vs. NPC's. It should be just as effective against PC's, theoretically, but I think there are some mucky boundary issues about telling people "no you HAVE to listen to what they're saying and RP it." I think that taking the chance to actually let your character be convinced by Persuasion where they might not otherwise be convinced can make for interesting RP, and that should be not only allowed but commended. However, I don't think I'm comfortable with a rule saying that people have to let other PC's dictate their opinions, reactions, etc. with the use of a Basic Gift. Even more powerful Gifts like Mastery or Head Games don't actually let you change someone's mind, and I think that in the end each player should remain the final authority on what their PC thinks, Gifts or no Gifts.

THIS A BILLION TIMES

[Conor (Former ST)]

Y'know, I really should have said "with NPCs I run" and not "in scenes I run."  Because that's what I meant, but not what I actually said.

[Seven Mountains]

This will always be a tough point for me so here goes.

You can't ignore health levels of damage from a physical challenge

Why can you ignore the impact of a social challenge, especially one powered by a gift such as persuasion?

How does this make sense?

It would be similar to me to say, I don't like that this puzzle is too challenging for my character and it's not fun for me so just give me the answer.

[Berek (ST)]

Because it's a hard thing to police - unless you are talking about something like Dominate, which is a command that has to be followed, you have an argument about the nature of the order/suggestion, whether or not it is contrary to the receiving PC's nature or code of honor or whatever, just how much weight something like persuasion adds to a suggestion, etc.

Health levels can be marked on a sheet. Degrees of changing your mind are massively harder to quantify.

[Marc (Admin)]

I just went looking for the text of the old house rule in the archives but can't seem to find it.

If I remember correctly, there was definitely a tone of "Persuation, the Gift, gives you bonus traits and nothing more."  I'm pretty sure that the driving force behind the rule, though, was to assert that the Gift, Persuasion itself didn't do anything else, and that it's use wasn't going to "make you more likely to win" subsequent social challenges in any way other than the sum of any bonus traits achieved.  The Gift doesn't make your words any more influential, rather the Gift gives you traits for a leg up on trying to make your words more influential.  And, if I remember correctly, the rule came about because of a number of people's interpretation of just the following portion of the Gift description, as if it were itself a complete statement:

In addition to the game-mechanical effect, your words are more influential
than usual...

And so we added a rule.  I don't think the intent was ever to discourage (and certainly not to prohibit!) good roleplaying of the social challenge.  The actual outcome of the challenge still comes down to two players and their traits.

[Seven Mountains]

And this right here, this discussion is why those who perhaps are not versed in manipulating or charming people OOG struggle with playing a character who can do so IG.

The system is supposed to be a collaborative effort by the challenger and the challenged to trust and accept that conflict happens, and the storytelling system is designed to resolve those things in a way which adds an uncontrolled dynamic to the story, giving it realism and vibrancy. It is a trust between players, or staff and players that challenges matter.

7M respects Jerry because of the multipel RP's they hadd in which Jerry threw chops after and won. 7M should not respect Jerry, but he does because the system said he should. That's the way it works, that's why it's a storytelling system and not a combat system.

I know I am in the minority here on this but I have always felt a story in a LARP is a collaboration, if someone is playing a social fist character, part of the social contract of respect you get is the give and take that they won't abuse your fun, but also that you will accept them changing your point of view though RP with stats because that is how IG diplomacy works. If it was all about Combat skills the SilverFang would have been taken down from leadership and replaced by the GoF and Black Furies a Long time ago...