A technical question

[Carter Heyward]

Was Brody in frenzy when he gave Garrett the Battlescar?

[Garret]

Worse... he was in Thralling.

[Carter Heyward]

And the scar was given with the 'klaive', yeah?

If so, I would contact Mike asap; you cannot use weapons while in frenzy...

[Garret]

It was a fetish weapon, and apparently you don't drop those.  Joe ST'ed the scene.  They seemed in agreement, you don't just drop your fetishes...

[Carter Heyward]

Claw, bite or run are your options to my reading. Drop fetishes? No. Use Fetishes? No as well.

Joe?

[Mike]

in RAtC
You still use fetish weapons as you do not drop them
However you cannot use any retest other then frenzy

Berserker's Rage the Get of Fneris gift allows you to use your retests.

Its a house rule because frankly it doesnt make since that a frenzy with a weapon you will not drop will stop that weapon from being used.

[Carter Heyward]

Nothing says you cannot drop fetish weapons (or any other fetish for that matter)...fetish and dedication do not prevent dropping or losing them, simply you may carry them throughout all forms, and that you do not, in the case of fetishes (and talens), need to spend Gnosis to get at them while in the Umbra.

[Garret]

I think I fell victim, unwittingly to two house rules in that combat.  The first being you can use klaives while in a frenzy and the second being that while in the rule book luck is defined as "The result on the second challenge always stands." where in my case, he got a frenzy chop after I used lucky.

[Mike]

1)
It's not just Klaives its any weapons.
It's a house rule and I would be more then happy to put it up for a vote if a bunch of people don't like that ruling.

2)
Luck type retests are the final retest for that individual but you cannot use Luck to block other people's retests.  Becasue if that was the case you could just say luck on the first round of retests and ignore everything else.  In the case of the battle you retested dodge and I won the challenge, you used Luck and then one the challenge but I still had the option of my frenzy retest.  It's a back and forth thing.   It is the same with Silver Fang and their Social retest against garou.  It has to be there last retest, they can't retest after that, bu8t it doesnt stop the other person's retest.   The way the gift is written its written as if you are battling a static chop and not another person, hense why they are saying the second challenge must stand.  Its written as if you are jumping over a fence not that you are dodging the fense clawing at you.

[Justin Northwood]

On another note, Mike's spelling sucks! 

[Mike]

Shut up no speel checker

[Justin Northwood]

Actually, the newer versions of Firefox have a built-in Microsoft Office-style spell checker...  Misspelled words in open text fields get underlined with a squiggly red line just like in Office...  You can even right-click and get spelling suggestions or add new words to the dictionary. 

[Mike]

Ill put your suggestion into Citizens and se if they allow us the use of firefox

[Taweret]

Emmy's spelling during the day: Teh suck

Emmy's spelling after 5: Not bad!

[PEBE]

Don't use the Firefox Spell ckeck! It'll pervert your posts!!!

But on a serious note:
-- Having given that scene much thought, here's how I would like to change our house rule. If you frenzy while you are wielding a Fetish Weapon or Klaive and attack with that weapon, you will have to make a simple test. On a win ONLY, you will deal damage as normal, and a LOSS will only inflice 1 Agg as you do not have the higher brain functions to utilize the weapon properly and hit with the broad end of the sword. On a TIE, chop again.

Any thoughts?

[Carter Heyward]

Personally, I don't like anything that allows you retain a weapon during Frenzy. Not only does it goes against the book, it also goes against the mindless attack (or run) that a Frenzy is meant to be, in my opinion.

That being said, lesser control as suggested by Joe's new house rule will suit me fine.

[Torvald Magnusson]

Has this been settled?

[Mike]

Fetish Weapons Like Klaives and hammers and anything else you can think of can do the same base damage whether a skilled person hits you or not.  Im not going to start rules scaling weapons damage, its hard enough keeping track of 50 weapons in play and their different damage levels never mind damage by user or their state of mind.

That being said.

My opinion of Fetish weapons in play during frenzy is that they arent normla weapons.  They are attuned to the user and they are not simply forgotten. In fact Frenzy in my mind would make them more inclinced to use them.  However, there is no way Im allowing someone in frenzy to use skills attached to that weapon.  No Klaiviskar, No Melee retest, No retests other then frenzy (or special cases like luck etc.).

The weapon is used but clumsly, Frenzy gives you negative traits use them against the person.  They starts swing a klaive at you like a billy club duck.

[Erik Bridge]

Everybody run!  Erik is putting his two cents in.  As a high rage/lower willpower player, I have to agree with Andrew.  This isn't the precise attack of a well trained warrior, this is the all out assault of the beast that is with in all were-wolfs.  It is the slavering crazy-eyed bezerker frenzy of a crazed wild beast, or the frenzied attempt to escape.  It's why main fetish items have wrist bands.  So that they don't get lost.  In this state your higher brain shuts down as it's over powered by the Flight/Fight instinct with in us all.  The reason humans don't frenzy is that we have lost this beast or it's been so depressed by our ego/super-ego it's almost dead.

While in this state thoughts of weapons and tactics go right out the window as the claws and teeth and any other natural weaponry are employed.  If you can hardly distinguish friend from foe, I doubt you can hold onto you favorite knife.

[Soothing Rain]

I agree with Erik and Andrew, but then again, STs have the final say.

[Mike]

No the players have the final say Ill put it up for vote tomorrow

[Soothing Rain]

Wow, cool. That's awfully...democratic of you. I always thought Storytelling was like a monarchy. 

[Arianna_Fireau]

So this is what the Glasswalker asks.....

If you get to use your Fetish hand to hand weapons in frenzy... Do I get to use my Fetish guns? *quirks eyebrow* Because under that mentality... they are fetishes.

[Torvald Magnusson]

Sure, you just need to swing them at people.

[Soothing Rain]

Hahaha. 

[Arianna_Fireau]

Well.... /technically/...

I'm just playing devil's advocate. I think it'll get dropped by players anyways. If it doesn't we can discuss it then.

[Mike]

Gunfu anyone?  you would hit them with it

[Arianna_Fireau]

Thereby defeating the purpose of the gun since that would do bashing as opposed to lethal or agg. *sigh* Once again no one understands the Urrah Technowolves.

:-P

[Soothing Rain]

They might do lethal if you hit someone hard enough. I mean, if you're in a frenzy, you're probably hitting pretty hard... 

[Arianna_Fireau]

... Unless you're Ari who has 0 strength traits in homid. In fact... she has negative str traits.

[Soothing Rain]

If you have enough negative strength traits, would your attacks do negative damage? Like, heal people?

[Garret]

See I figure, if you murder your friends, family, and even your own children in frenzy, you'd drop your weapons.  You're in a primal murderous state.

[Torvald Magnusson]

My opinion would simply be if you have trained with something so long and so hard that you fight with it as instinct, then when you Frenzy you revert to that instinct.

just my .02

[Mike]

Never mind the fact that the weapon is more then that its attuned to you, its part of you.

[Taweret]

I'm gonna agree with Tom. Frenzy is a bad thing. Bad things happen. All training, all conscious thought goes flying out the window as the crimson haze falls over you and turns you into a monster.

Whoever suggested the wrist-loops for Fetish weapons had a good idea. That's probably the only way you should be able to keep your Fetish weapon with you during frenzy.

[Garret]

Well on the same note of instinct, its the most primal built instinct to protect your young, however in frenzy, you'd murder them without a thought as well.  Aside from the instinct of "Die die die, everything must die!", there's not a lot going on.  By that logic, someone who trains constantly with their guns, to the point where wielding them becomes instinct, ((and it does, fyi)) then wouldn't that mean, we'd have to include ranged weapons as well, to be able to be fired off during a frenzy?

You'd still have a spiritual link the the gun, and it would be your instinct to use it, ergo, you can frenzy with guns.
If your weapon is sheathed or holstered, it would be your instinct to draw it in order to use it.  Drawing a weapon is the most basic of instinctual maneuvers.
If you were disarmed in combat, your instinct tells you to recover your spiritually attuned weapon.
If you are no longer able to activate fetish weapons, you will have to note how your weapon works if it were mundane with less damage, or a loss of traits.
If you train long and hard to where using your fetish's property is instinct while wielding the weapon, you would still maintain the ability to activate it.
((These are just premises that will need to be answered if it comes up))

Which is why I think, you'd just drop them and turn into a whirring ball of fur, claws and teeth, despite the fact that it isn't advantageous at all.
If you drop it you drop it.

[Mike]

curb the discussion and just vote.

its quite clear that we differ on opinion.
your not going to convince me by restating this over and over in different ways

[Garret]

I'm not trying to convince you, Mike.