The National IC list

[Conor (Former ST)]

The CBC started a discussion on the ST list today.  I feel like most people have an opinion on this.

Hi, all.

I've been engaged in a talk with my Subcoords about the National list about giving the removal the Garou IC list a test run. The talk has, by no means, been unanimous for or against the idea.

I'm opening the floor to talk about this a bit more openly, as you guys are the ones that would be affected if we did this. Some of the pros and cons from the discussion are below.

Pro:
- The Garou setting never supported a mass, unstoppable communication medium.
- Galliards and Ragabash would be in their genre-set position of spreading information.
- The keyboard commandos would have much less to commando about.

Con:
- More distant games will lose the IC list as a communication medium, being left with Auspice and Tribal lists.
- Announcements will have to come through IC means (or less visible lists) and spread either IC or through Storytellers.

Some compromises suggested by my staff:
- Close the IC list except for moderated announcements, stories and scandal.
- Keep the IC list open and propose that the list becomes an enforceable sign-in.
- Keep the IC list open and propose a moderated, binding code of conduct.

Thoughts?

-Justin

[Lars Nielsen]

All of the Pros and all of the Cons apply to deleting the Auspice and Tribal lists too.

What is the IC list like? I can't imagine what it's like playing a character with justification to be on it.

[Jerry Castillo]

I wouldn't particularly miss the IC list, personally, particularly if we can keep Tribal and Auspice lists.

[Seven Mountains]

It's the same 4-8 people bitching constantly. That is the national IC list.

I am for the removal of both the IC List as a communication tool and instead allowing characters 1 post per moon cycle for the purpose of renown loss and gain tales. Given that I think the Auspicial lists should remain to facilitate the preparation of those stories as they are far less the circle jerk that the IC list is.

My .02

[Nike 'Slays the Patriarchy' Strilakos]

i like and read the IC list and would like to keep it.

[PEBE]

Of the options listed, this is my preference

- Keep the IC list open and propose a moderated, binding code of conduct.

[Gabriel]

I like the IC list for the amusement/outrage value, but it is laregly ridiculous as a tool in genre. It's also one more thing that reduces the stated role of Silent Striders in the game, since there's no need for a tribe of messengers when everyone has instantaneous secure spirit communication. I have less of an issue with the tribe and auspice lists. I think for organizational purposes, the list should only be used for moderator postings announcing events and TN/CBC posts dropping plot bombs on the setting.

[AndrewD]

I am suspicious about the timing, but that's neither here nor there.

I like the lists as communication between distant games, but if I had to lose it, it wouldn't bother me much. I would prefer the tribal and auspicial lists to stay.

[Mike]

I am also suspicious about the timing but I think the IC list ties games together in this big universe called GOWbN.  There is far more good then bad on the list.

[AndrewD]

The timing apparently has nothing to do with the current issue, but another one on another list.

I am for keeping the whole damn thing, and not letting policies regarding this sort of thing be influenced by one or two loudmouth players.

[AndrewD]

Poll was put up. Here are my answers (not yet submitted):

Would you support the IC list being closed to public posting, reserved only for moderated posts and announcements? *

 No

Would you support PCs in your game being able to lose Renown at the request of other games (or the CBC) due to actions on the IC list? *

Yes

Would you support PCs in your game being able to lose Rank at the request of other games (or the CBC) due to actions on the IC list? *

Yes
 
Would you support PCs in your game being able to potentially die at the request of other games (or the CBC) due to actions on the IC list? *

Yes



Note that all of my 'yes' answers are with the caveat that any of these things need to be justified and cannot reek (as they sometimes do) of OOC grudges being settled IC.

[PEBE]

I agree with each choice.

[Seven Mountains]

I don;t agree with those answers, but if I am in the minority I understand.

[Gabriel]

I'm comfortable with those.

[Justin Northwood]

I also agree.
I'd like to see the list stick around and not succumb to current event stupidity.
Also, the remaining items are all things that (I think) everyone should already be obligated to adhere to in any IC medium.

[Nike 'Slays the Patriarchy' Strilakos]

as long as it is not ok to lose rank or renown based on ooc errors in typing or what not.  i hate that people use ettiquet to deal with autocorrect and if you don't have the dot you are screwed by your phone

[Justin Northwood]

I agree there, but only insofar as the error is a clear misspelling or other issue inherent to email/small keyboards.
An error due to anything outside of this wouldn't apply any more than it would in live, spoken conversation.
Moral of the story, everyone should be able to afford 1 XP at some point sooner rather than later to purchase at least one Trait in Etiquette.
OOC statements should NEVER influence IC actions, particularly punishments or retaliations.

[Seven Mountains]

My only issue is efforts to remove renown or rank from players who do not use the IC list in an IC way and in turn are unaware of the reasons for loss of these things. It's a very easily misused system which given the personalities OOC involved I for one can;t trust in such a way.

[Mike]

Vance I think the questions mean, if you fuck up on the IC list, like bad mouthing an elder, or you know calling for the expulsion of an entire tribe, you can be held accountable.

I don't think the case you stated would be allowed without your knowledge.   

[Seven Mountains]

Mike,

I think I see what you are saying

"Would you support PCs in your game being able to lose Renown at the request of other games (or the CBC) due to actions on the IC list? *"

It doesn't say their actions, just actions. That perhaps is my confusion. If Alexander mouths off on the IC list and says his pack can take any pack in the nation and Monroe shows up on my doorstep and kills 7M is more what I am referring to.

If it is what you started then sure, you open mouth and insert foot then you get the foot shoved down to choke on.

[Mike]

I think that's the spirit of what is written.

BTW your example could happen without this change lol.
The issue is games stopping renown loss.
If a player wants to show up and kill you then they would be allowed to try if they sign into our game (the boards)

[PEBE]

Keeping this in the same thread but here's an update of things from the CBC:

Thanks for your patience, everyone.

I had 15 respondents to the poll and the breakdown is as follows:

Close the IC List: 9 for, 6 against
Allow Renown Loss: 14 for, 1 against
Allow Rank Loss: 10 for, 5 against
Allow Death: 6 for, 9 against

With the above in mind, I'd like to engage the "consequences" concepts before the "closing" concept. So, here's how this is going to work:

Storytellers, you should feel free to inform your players that their actions on the Garou IC list may have enforceable consequences involving losses of Renown or Rank (as you feel appropriate). Auto-Death is a bridge too far. Should a cross-game ST discussion come about due to something on the IC list, I'd love to be included in that talk for posterity and to help resolve any disputes.

Sounds like we're mostly all on the same page, though.

If you aren't in agreement with PCs in your game being affected by their actions on the IC list, you would do well to advise your players that they shouldn't be posting on it. Allowing carte blanche over the IC list just makes things silly, and it seems that the grand majority of respondents agree with that fact.

Thanks everyone for engaging in this discussion. We'll give this a few months with these new "tools" at the disposal of the ST crews and perhaps things will get easier and more appropriate.

-Justin

--
Justin Quigley
Changing Breeds Coord