Author Topic: Frenzy Dos and Don'ts  (Read 1506 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Lars Nielsen

  • Gregory P
  • *
  • Posts: 314
  • Karma: +2/-0
Frenzy Dos and Don'ts
« on: September 08, 2014, 09:42:50 pm »
At game on Saturday, it was ruled that you cannot use Abilities during Frenzy and I was wondering where the justification for that came from. I've always seen it played that while your character is required to attack the target of your Frenzy, you (as a player) are not required to throw your character's full stats (refreshing traits with Willpower, using Retests, etc.) when attacking your allies, but are still allowed to when attacking your foes. Certainly you can't use Gifts during Frenzy, but I haven't seen any indication in the books that Frenzy hamstrings you that badly physically.

Offline Nike 'Slays the Patriarchy' Strilakos

  • Anna Bradley
  • *
  • Posts: 3,855
  • Karma: +3/-5
Re: Frenzy Dos and Don'ts
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2014, 09:54:30 pm »
i think it is the same thing as why you cant do compelx things or use retests or whatever.  you are jsut too not-yourself to do anything but blindly strike
Homid | Ahroun | Elder | Black fury

Pure Breed 2(black fury)

Offline Travis West

  • Tom
  • *
  • Posts: 818
  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Frenzy Dos and Don'ts
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2014, 06:51:37 am »
But blindly striking IS brawl. You would get to add a specialty like martial arts for instance. Also in TT you still have to roll your brawl and can split dice pools to dodge as well.

By that logic while in Frenzy we shouldnt get defensive retests either.
Travis "Rages Against the Machine" West
Homid Adren Ahroun of the Wendigo
WENDIGO

Offline Nike 'Slays the Patriarchy' Strilakos

  • Anna Bradley
  • *
  • Posts: 3,855
  • Karma: +3/-5
Re: Frenzy Dos and Don'ts
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2014, 07:49:32 am »
i am not sure we get defensive retests, do we?  my recollection is no retestes, some STs allow a blanket "frenzy" retest.  you have to spend your max rage, and you gain rage every round or something like that?  i think in my 3+ years i have only been in a frenzy once though so i am not certain
Homid | Ahroun | Elder | Black fury

Pure Breed 2(black fury)

Offline Matt (HST)

  • Matt Kamm
  • (Storytellers)
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,005
  • Karma: +3/-0
  • Storyteller
Re: Frenzy Dos and Don'ts
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2014, 08:46:32 am »
Frenzy is definitely something that could use some clarification. By the book, the only real benefit of frenzy is ignoring wound penalties. It seems to be a common belief, probably backed up by rules somewhere in Laws of the Night or something (Tom? Conor?) that being in frenzy also renders you immune to many methods of mind-manipulation (Presence, etc.).

There is no frenzy retest. I get what it was for and don't necessarily disagree with its existence, but it's never been anywhere in our house rules or any rulebook that I know of. Similarly, being forced to dump all your Rage is a reasonable thing but not actually written as a rule anywhere that I'm aware of. Getting one Rage per round is right out - there's a Gift for that. I am not denying that any of these things may have happened previously, I'm just saying that as things currently stand there is no basis for them in the rules that I'm aware of. Maybe we want to change that! We can talk about that.

As for using retests in frenzy, that's a good question. As per Laws of the Wild pg. 185, "The character can bite, claw or run, and that's all. The character can spend for extra actions but cannot engage in complex actions, use Gifts, step sideways, and so on." This bit actually seems to strongly imply that frenzying characters DON'T need to dump all their Rage ("can spend for extra actions" not "must spend for extra actions") and, in my opinion, disqualifies getting a bonus from Martial Arts. I think Brawl is a reasonable retest, and because of our rules about having Martial Arts and Brawl (i.e., you can't) Martial Arts is also therefore a reasonable retest, but being a karate master does not get you a bonus trait on ripping someone's guts out with your claws in frenzy. Soaking with Survival certainly seems reasonable since it's purely reflexive, Dodging is less clear. I think a case could be made either way for Dodge.

I think it's reasonable not to be required to spend Rage when your character is attacking an ally, and to not have to spend Willpower to refresh if you don't want to (punching yourself into exhaustion is a thing). I think it's  unreasonable to choose to bid one Trait when attacking an ally; this implies a level of restraint that frenzy really doesn't allow for by its very nature. If you can use retests while frenzying, using retests against allies falls in the middle here, in my opinion.
Thirty minutes or it's free? EXCELLENT!
Once again, I am free to smite the world as I did in days long past.

Offline Travis West

  • Tom
  • *
  • Posts: 818
  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Frenzy Dos and Don'ts
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2014, 01:40:48 pm »
The way I have run it at my game is:

"Sure you can bid one, and relent, and not spend rage to avoid hitting allies. Do not expect the 2xp for good role play." But otherwise don't force our players into a set system of actions while in frenzy.

Rules-wise, the problem (S I see it) with Frenzy and expending your abilities, is unlike table-top, if you go balls to the walls frenzy time you're done for combat for the rest of the game, your retests expended, your traits lowered and your rage gone. Granted you can spend the willpower to regain just the traits, assuming you haven't already. In TT your penalty for losing control of your rage is you lost rage...

Travis "Rages Against the Machine" West
Homid Adren Ahroun of the Wendigo
WENDIGO

Offline Gabriel

  • Berek
  • *
  • Posts: 939
  • Karma: +3/-0
Re: Frenzy Dos and Don'ts
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2014, 01:58:34 pm »
I think a big part of the issue is that I don't recall us running Frenzy as no retests before this weekend. So it felt particularly jarring.
Gabriel
Metis Philodox Cub

Offline Nike 'Slays the Patriarchy' Strilakos

  • Anna Bradley
  • *
  • Posts: 3,855
  • Karma: +3/-5
Re: Frenzy Dos and Don'ts
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2014, 01:59:21 pm »
I have always seen rage run it with no retests....
Homid | Ahroun | Elder | Black fury

Pure Breed 2(black fury)

Offline Conor (Former ST)

  • Conor
  • Conor
  • *
  • Posts: 685
  • Karma: +2/-1
  • Storyteller
Re: Frenzy Dos and Don'ts
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2014, 05:43:58 pm »
IMO, Frenzy requires you to spend Brawl, and gives you the option to spend Athletics/Dodge/Survival, and pretty much any other ability is too complicated.  (Except for Primal-Urge, which obviously isn't, but I'm not sure why you might want or need to spend it in this case.)  There's an argument for "if a melee weapon is already in your hand you don't have to drop it, but you may not draw one," but opinions on that seem mixed.

Nothing can compel someone to spend Willpower.

Offline Lars Nielsen

  • Gregory P
  • *
  • Posts: 314
  • Karma: +2/-0
Re: Frenzy Dos and Don'ts
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2014, 06:26:03 pm »
(Except for Primal-Urge, which obviously isn't, but I'm not sure why you might want or need to spend it in this case.)

Retest on Rage Back From Death