Author Topic: Fur Gnarl (proposed)  (Read 1465 times)

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Offline Conor (Former ST)

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Fur Gnarl (proposed)
« on: July 13, 2015, 01:58:59 pm »
This is an idea we're kicking around for a MET implementation of Fur Gnarl.  It strikes me as a) expensive and b) still totally worth it in a lot of circumstances, which means it's about right.

Step 1 - Make a hole:  Spend physical traits equal to the levels of DR you're trying to remove.  Then make a regular close-combat challenge versus your target.  Succeed, and your packmates (and you) can move on to step 2.  Fail, and you (or someone else) must re-attempt step 1.  Either way, you've spent some traits.  

Step 2 - ???: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tO5sxLapAts

Step 3 - Profit: Any packmate can make a physical challenge to attack the weak spot.  Bid extra traits equal to the amount of removed armor as you attempt to hit the weak spot.  Succeed, and you deal DR-ignoring damage.  Fail, and you've lost an unusually high number of traits.

Caveats: Ranged weapons can't be used in step 1.  You are your own packmate, and may use this solo even if you have no pack totem.  Like all pack tactics, you must have the tactic on your sheet in order to use it.  Crafty opponents may take actions to hide their weak spot from you by putting it up against a wall or something.  Anything that causes your target to heal significant damage (Mother's Touch, multiple rounds of healing without weak-spot attacks) is likely to close the hole on targets that have inherent armor, like scales.

Once we finalize our house rule, anyone wishing they hadn't bought it will be allowed to un-spend their XP on it.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2015, 02:31:14 pm by Conor (ST) »

Offline Nike 'Slays the Patriarchy' Strilakos

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Re: Fur Gnarl (proposed)
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2015, 02:39:53 pm »
um... what happened with how we were using it before?  i.e. you have to have at least a packmate there, you do a physical challenge to get the thing going, if you succeed, you have a weak spot, if you fail whatever.  if you succeed, next attacks by you and packmates bypass the DR... 

no spending of a billion traits all at once.  i mean your proposal makes it so that if something has DR 3, i spend 3 traits, and then bid 4 traits to bypass this thing you just SPENT traits to get rid of.  this is kinda nuts.
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Offline Matt (HST)

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Re: Fur Gnarl (proposed)
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2015, 05:14:37 pm »
The spending and bidding of extra traits is meant to represent the increased difficulty of striking exactly the same spot, and to acknowledge that DR is very powerful and shouldn't be trivially removable by a 1 XP pack tactic. Something with DR 3 is basically immune to gunfire and Garou claws - even Razor Claws - and being able to bypass that defense is Kind of a Big Deal. On the other hand, something with DR 1 may not even be worth it to Fur Gnarl, or maybe it is, depending on the situation.

Nonetheless, if the player base by and large feel that the presented option is too harsh or costly and that they wouldn't use it, that is good information.
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Offline Conor (Former ST)

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Re: Fur Gnarl (proposed)
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2015, 06:58:42 pm »
um... what happened with how we were using it before?

I don't think we had a thing before.  Certainly we've never, that I know of, had anything published or documented.

In general, I think "Bid 1 trait to do 1 extra damage on hit" is a pretty good option, and that's about what this boils down to.  Certainly I'd take bidding extra traits over "you cannot inflict damage at all."

Offline Nike 'Slays the Patriarchy' Strilakos

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Re: Fur Gnarl (proposed)
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2015, 01:35:23 pm »
except it is spend a trait, then bid an extra trait to try to do a normal amount of damage.

we had something, i had the tactic on my sheet for a previous character *shrug*
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Offline PEBE

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Re: Fur Gnarl (proposed)
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2015, 06:43:20 pm »
The sheer number of traits that must be spent by the ENTIRE pack to achieve this makes it unattractive. I feel that due to that, the more-attractive-to-the-player option is to find things that provide a better bang for the buck (an Arms Race of sorts). I'd rather see existing tools be the more attractive option. To be honest, as a player, I'd rather spend some gnosis to summon a few elementals and Blast the f'r than risk using this tactic with my cliath/fostern packmates.
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Offline Marc (Admin)

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Re: Fur Gnarl (proposed)
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2015, 07:38:04 pm »
Your friendly administrative historian here! :)

I couldn't find anything suggesting we've actually ever had a written mechanic for Fur Gnarl, either.  There are lots of posts out there discussing it, and players purchasing it, yet I don't think we've ever really committed to what it does or how in any kind of official way.  There are even a few discussions among packs where the threads seem to die off immediately after something to the effect of "OOC: Okay, so how does this work mechanically?"

The excerpt below is what we did have as a house rule for Pack Tactics, with Fur Gnarl noticeably absent.  It existed in this form from September 2008 when Mike's very original house rule posting circa 2006 was expanded and reworked.  Sometime thereafter, the house rules were moved into sections of the website outside of the forum index where Pack Tactics remained unchanged until mid 2014 when the house rules were scaled back to their current form.

My only two cents on this is that in my RAtC administrator old age, I find myself much more in favor of simpler and fewer rules.  Generally speaking.

There is no cap on the number of pack tactics a given pack can have.  Pack tactics are good for role playing and are encouraged by the ST staff.

There are no special rules for learning them.  If you setup a scene and actively role play the learning/practicing with the pack, then there is no issue with learning it.

In RAtC, your pack can have one Pack Tactic free of charge, beyond that, Pack Tactics cost 1xp apiece.  It is required that pack mates buy it at the same time (at least two of them, more depending on the tactic).

The trait/damage benefit of a pack tactic is determined entirely by the type of tactic and the number of packmates using it at one time.  The mechanics of your specific tactic idea are subject to ST approval of course.  I'm not certain there is really any documented information out there for pack tactics in the White Wolf literature, since for the most part they are homegrown.  Different OWbN Garou games have different house rules governing them.  For example, I've been in games where they are free to purchase (cost no XP), but the learning/practicing process takes much longer.  Here are a couple of examples:

Wishbone:
Each packmate grapples a limb or part of an enemy.  Once all have succeeded in their action (trying to grapple/hold) then each packmate can pull on their limb each round dealing damage.  The version I've used in the past deals two Lethal damage per packmate, so a pack of four would be dealing the enemy eight lethal per round.

Group Hacking:
One packmate performs the primary action of trying to hack into a computer network/mainframe.  The rest of the pack runs interference for the primary hacker by uploading viruses, running memory-hogging processes, etc.  With all packmates working together, the primary hacker gains a one trait bonus on their hacking action for each packmate running interference for them.  Additionally, each packmate running interference gets a one trait bonus on their interference action for each additional packmate that is running interference.  Lets say packmate #1 is doing the primary hacking and packmates #2, #3, #4 #5 are running interference.  Packmate #1 gets a four trait bonus toward hacking (because there are four other packmates running interference.)  Packmates #2, #3, #4, #5 each get a three trait bonus toward interference actions (because each is working with three additional packmates running interference).

Good Cop/Bad Cop:
Designed for two packmates, where they play the good cop/bad cop game while interrogating an enemy.  Both of them gain a 1 social-trait bonus, and plus one to Subterfuge for actions against the target (trying to get him to crack, give up information, etc.)

More Ideas Suggested by Players.  Please note, you will need to come up with and propose an in-game mechanic for any of these and run it by the ST staff before assuming you can have them:

Bounding Overwatch:
This is a manuver tactic involving the alternating movement of friendly units for either offensive forward movement or defensive disengagement from a fight.

Supression:
Heavy and continuous fire limits the overall firepower of the enemy force and cuts down on the enemies ability to gather intelligence related to the combat at hand.

Advance:
With the base of fire established, a portion of the squad or a second unit all together advance to cover closer to the enemy and set up a new base of fire.

Assault:
Steps 1 and 2 are continued until all friendly units have closed on the enemy position. At this point the attackers will close on the enemy with the intent to destroy or capture them.

Patrol:
A small unit is given a task and sent out to accomplish it then return. The basic patrols are fighting, clearing and reconnaissance. The most typical patrol is the reconnaissance patrol, which is to avoid combat and come back with information on the enemys positions and strengths. A fighting patrol is usually conducted after a recon patrol to either ambush knowns enemy patrols or to raid their lines. A clearing patrol is sent out to ensure the immediate area is secure.

Ambush:
Use concealment to jump a passing enemy force, this tactic is both a defensive and offensive one. A defensive ambush slows the advance of the enemy by making them cautious. Or in the offensive, to disrupt or destroy enemy patrols as quickly and usually quietly as possible to allow for a more stealthy initial attack. Typical ambushes come in three main types. The Linear, which is all friendly units are equal distance from the kill zone. L-shaped, with a portion of the ambushers force set up to fire down the enemies ranks. V-shaped, the ambusher is not immediatly near the kill zone when the enemy enters allowing the attackers to interlock fire to attempt to deny the enemy the ability to exit the kz.

Flying Wedge:
The attackers form into a V shape to charge the enemies lines, in an effort to penetrate the lines at the point then widen the gap as the rest of the wedge pushes forward and has the hopefully added benifit of the guys in back drawing fire as the rest of the unit pushes in.

Infiltration:
Small groups of lightly armed infanty attack the enemy rear by by passing front line strong points to isolate them for follow up attack or to be by passed all together.

Double Envelopment (Pincer Movement):
Both flanks of the enemy are targeted simultaneously while the enemy advances at the center of the defending force. The idea is to surround the denstroy the attacking force.

Flanking:
Typically used against either a mobile enemy in a manner similar to an ambush or against defensive lines or fortifications. In the latter case, troops from the advancing fore fix the enemy with suppression fire while the flanking force maneuvers around to close and either hit the enemy on the end of their line or swing behind them and entrap them between the two attacking forces.

Raid:
Are an attack carried out with a specific objective usually without the intent to capture ground, but to once the attack is complete fall back to firendly lines.The purposes of a raid could be to try and confuse and exhaust the enemy by forcing them to be constantly alert and spread them thin to keep themselves secure. To hitting a location to secure supplies, rescue or capture people or destroy things.

Hit and Run:
Exactly what it sounds like.

Again, these are just examples.  Feel free to get creative and run your idea by the staff.  As long as the benefit is within the realm of reality and not too over-the-top, there should be no problem.  See also, the US Army and Marine Corps Field Manuals for Small Unit Combat and Tactics for more ideas.

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Offline Berek (ST)

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Re: Fur Gnarl (proposed)
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2015, 11:47:29 pm »
My two cents - I think spending the traits to do the initial rending, and then normal attacks after that, is a reasonable balance. A larger pack will be able to make extensive use of it, and a smaller pack won't risk blowing through all their traits in a relatively few actions if things go badly on their chops. We could even make it a flat expenditure of three to five traits, regardless of the amount of DR being bypassed, to ensure that people don't just reflexively can opener everything they face.
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Offline Conor (Former ST)

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Re: Fur Gnarl (proposed)
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2015, 11:23:15 pm »
The sheer number of traits that must be spent by the ENTIRE pack to achieve this makes it unattractive. I feel that due to that, the more-attractive-to-the-player option is to find things that provide a better bang for the buck (an Arms Race of sorts). I'd rather see existing tools be the more attractive option. To be honest, as a player, I'd rather spend some gnosis to summon a few elementals and Blast the f'r than risk using this tactic with my cliath/fostern packmates.

When our game's biggest sheet says, "I'd rather use an Intermediate Gift that gives me indirect access to one of the most powerful mechanics in the game," that tells me I've done a good job of making something that's an option, but not so powerful that it's "why would you ever not do that?"

Offline Nike 'Slays the Patriarchy' Strilakos

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Re: Fur Gnarl (proposed)
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2015, 08:45:25 am »
The sheer number of traits that must be spent by the ENTIRE pack to achieve this makes it unattractive. I feel that due to that, the more-attractive-to-the-player option is to find things that provide a better bang for the buck (an Arms Race of sorts). I'd rather see existing tools be the more attractive option. To be honest, as a player, I'd rather spend some gnosis to summon a few elementals and Blast the f'r than risk using this tactic with my cliath/fostern packmates.

When our game's biggest sheet says, "I'd rather use an Intermediate Gift that gives me indirect access to one of the most powerful mechanics in the game," that tells me I've done a good job of making something that's an option, but not so powerful that it's "why would you ever not do that?"

when our games biggest sheet sways "this is too expencive for me" that just means the rest of us cant even dream of using it :P
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Offline Seven Mountains

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Re: Fur Gnarl (proposed)
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2015, 10:40:42 am »
My .02

Armor is a rare charm

Fur Gnarl is a pack tactic designed to allow packs as a whole of cliath and fostern to have a shot at doing damage to something of this magnitude.

Adren and above have far better options.

In your scoping/scaling make it a struggle for Cliath and Fostern to use, but they go to it becuase they lack a better choice. Adren and above go to it only to conserve spiritual energy / save their talens etc for the "bigger fight".
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Offline PEBE

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Re: Fur Gnarl (proposed)
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2015, 05:23:38 pm »
 :-\
when our games biggest sheet sways "this is too expencive for me" that just means the rest of us cant even dream of using it :P

This was the exact intent behind my rant. I'd rather use Intermediate gifts in a roundabout way than utilize the pack tactic specifically designed for neutralizing armor due to the rule change. I don't think Cliaths/Fostern will find it worthwhile due to the inherent trait cost either, but only time will tell.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2015, 05:42:17 pm by PEBE »
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