Harano

[Berek (ST)]

Do you want the opportunity to play out/through Harano? Why? Why not?

[Nike 'Slays the Patriarchy' Strilakos]

i think that depends on how it gets implemented.  i think it is interesting to toy with it, but i am not sure i'dpoersonally want to deal with playing it OR with dealing with someone close to my chara playing through it...

[Travis West]

The rule as written effectively makes it so that if you want to play through Harano, and ask for the chop, you have to surrender your sheet, basically disallowing players the agency of their characters if that is an aspect of the WoD you want to play through.

Alternatively, if you don't want to play through Harano, but you feel your character would slip into Harano and thus wish to make a new character, end I g your story there, I don't imagine an ST would force you to play a character.

Thus- I think players should have a choice if that's an aspect of genre you want to explore instead of making it GNC (unless the ST does it to you).

[Nike 'Slays the Patriarchy' Strilakos]

yes but if YOU choose to play through Harano, _i_ am forced to deal with a harano sept mate and that is a bit of RP ia m not sure i wantto actually EVER interact with

[Travis West]

Its not really fair for you to dictate what other people can role play as, within established genre.  You certainly can tell people that you'd prefer not to interact with their character if they're in Harano, but if that's what they want to role play, they get to, and there shouldn't be a rule against it.

We all have to "deal" with each other's RP. It is part of communal storytelling.

[Nike 'Slays the Patriarchy' Strilakos]

dude, this is where we state opinions, i stated mine.  dont tell me it's not fair, it is what i think.   it's not fair for YOU to dictate that you wanna give me ooc trauma either.  so here' have an impasse. 

[Travis West]

I'm giving you OOC trauma for talking about a concept in WoD outlined on 214-215 about magical depression caused by remorse over past lives?

Or am I giving you OOC trauma for questioning the notion that there might be a fairness issue when someone decides what others can do with their characters?

I am confused.

[Matt (HST)]

Content warning: Depression, self-harm

As I understand it, Anna is saying that she doesn't want to deal with other characters in the chronicle experiencing Harano. That's a preference, and it's perfectly fine to state preferences. There are pieces of Werewolf genre that I really hate (like Animal Attraction) and I feel it's okay to say here that I don't like it, or that it makes me uncomfortable on an OOC level (which it does).

There is sort of a logical extrapolation from that preference to a course of action, i.e., not RP'ing Harano in this chronicle and GNC'ing the character if someone chooses for that to happen to their character. Tom is pointing out that taking that course of action and allowing one player to dictate the roleplaying experiences allowed to others is an unfair dynamic, which I think is a perfectly reasonable viewpoint.

Now, Harano has a particular issue insofar as it's clinical depression (and frequently depression-induced suicide) for werewolves. These are real-world issues, and deeply serious and often deeply personal ones at that. Does that mean that they have no place in role-playing games? I don't think so; I think role-playing games are an interesting and potentially useful vehicle to explore those themes for people who want to do so. However, these themes in particular are pretty freakin' emotionally fraught for some people who have actually experienced them firsthand in their real lives with real people. If we choose to play with those themes, it seems like the responsible thing to do to make sure we're not causing OOC trauma to people by bringing them up with folks who want no part of it. Ideally, there is a way to do this in a way that allows people to roleplay the plots they want to play and also allows people who aren't comfortable with those plots to avoid them completely. Honest OOC communication is going to be important to that.

[Berek (ST)]

Content warning: Depression, self-harm
However, these themes in particular are pretty freakin' emotionally fraught for some people who have actually experienced them firsthand in their real lives with real people.

Speaking as a person who suffers from pretty serious issues with depression, this is absolutely key to the issue. I don't know if I'd be comfortable with it or not. I almost certainly wouldn't want to play it myself, and I don't know if I could handle it from others. So I would want the ability to walk away from that scenario without repercussions. I wouldn't deny someone their play experience, but I wouldn't want to be forced to RP something that might not only make me uncomfortable, but actually cause me harm.

[Travis West]

I could have been clearer when I said:

"You certain can tell people that you'd prefer not to interact with their character..."

I should have phrased that as: You certainly should tell people that you'd prefer not to interact with...

It is World of Darkness- its almost ALL touchy subjects. I don't think there should be House Rules preventing someone from engaging in cannon supernatural phenomenon.  That said, we all should be decent to each other OOC.

Alternatively, I'm far more amenable to things in games such as:

White Wolf talks about the Defiler Wyrm and Rape: We don't rape here (period).  Rape is not a thing that happens in the World of Darkness.  PCs don't do it, NPCs don't do it.  Metis go into a Beast of War Frenzy.  The End.

Harano and clinical depression and suicidal ideation isn't a thing here.  Werewolves don't have it, NPCs don't have it.  Not a thing.

Animal Attraction is not a thing here... ect.

I'm fine with clarifying Genre instead of stating "GNC if you think you're werewolf is supernaturally depressed, despite obvious rules to get out of your depression."

[Nike 'Slays the Patriarchy' Strilakos]

i do not htink we NEED to state that we do not ACT OUT rape in teh game.  because we don't. 

that rule is saying we don't ACT out depression either.  my point, as matt i think encapsulated it, is that _i_ do not want ot WATCH anyone act out either of those.  but while i can skip a scene that has a warning on it, i cant skip all interactions with my packmate who is acting out suicidal depression.  not without the repercussions Berek was mentioning. 

[Travis West]

You misunderstand. My example given rape was that it (the concept) does not exist, and never did. Not a matter of acting out, but rather a thing that does not exist in this fantasy world. It is a topic that will not be touched upon.

This example was to illustrate that I think it would be better to say depression does not exist nor does Harano, rather than House Rule Harano as a GNC phenomenon.

[Nike 'Slays the Patriarchy' Strilakos]

no i understand that was your example. 

[Conor (Former ST)]

My read on this rule (when I first came into game many years ago) was that players had previously flirted with Harano more casually than STs were comfortable with, because Harano is supposed to be some Heavy Shit, the result of waking up one morning and realizing "I have killed at least a hundred people and what was it even all for?"  And so the reaction was something that boiled down to don't-call-us-we'll-call-you.  Which makes sense, but I'm generally pretty against the idea that anything that much all-in-a-PC's-head could come down to a single chop.

That said, I think it's a neat feature of the World of Darkness and the whole "hopeless battle" thing, and I wouldn't want to deny it to people.  But I do think it should be serious, and I lean towards it being something for "old" PCs only.

Harano
Harano is an ailment sometimes suffered by Garou that have been active for a long time.  It includes feelings of deep depression and hopelessness, sorrow, listlessness, and may result in your character's suicide.  Harano is only for PCs two years or older.  Side effects may include loss of narrative, loss of character, trait penalties to arbitrary challenges, inability to complete in-character tasks, and hair loss.  Harano is not for everyone -talk to your storyteller about whether Harano is right for you.

[Marc (Admin)]

By my recollection, the motivation behind the original house rule many iterations ago, was in fact as Conor speculates.  I was not a staff member in those early days, but I tend to think that the rule was based on storyteller experiences prior to RAtC.  I don't recall anyone here ever being trigger-happy with Harano, and there's been a pretty diverse group of players associated with RAtC over the near decade we've existed.

[Kiara]

Content warning: Depression, self-harm

So as a person who has also dealt with clinical depression in my day to day life as well as various other mental conditions I have a huge problem with the rule that any singular action that resulted in this depression could automate character death. This is because it immediately gives up on the character. So basically "Oh you are depressed well here this is hopeless let me have your sheet" Im not cool with that as an idea nevermind an action taken in game.

I understand why it happened I watched the sheer quantity of harano chops that happened in an early game I was part of (mostly by this one pack >.<) there have been people who thought the chops should happen pretty regularly for a garou who had more information than others. Honestly I dont think a harano chop is an every day occurence but should also be a discussion between the player making the chop and the STs as to reasons for it (maybe contained in a downtime so as to not disrupt role play without warning so we could avoid people getting sucked into the scene.)

I am however in agreement with Tom where I think it is people's right as humans to explore depression through role play and squelching that self expression would be disasterous. Many people interact with LARP to work through and experience emotions, feelings, and problems in a controlled well handled situation they can separate themselves from and create cope. A player not wanting to deal with that is also acceptable. Harano (as with any other intense content) should be kept out of those people's plots and interactions. Much of this can be accomplished with communication and timing rules.

[Matt (HST)]

I agree that the current Harano rule is bad for many reasons, most especially including Steph's point about what it implies about depression narratives and Tom and Conor's points about losing your character (and that roleplay experience) to a single chop. There seems to be fundamental agreement on the point that people who are OOC Not Okay with interacting with Harano (which is, as Conor points out, Heavy Shit) should be accommodated in this. I also feel this way! The real struggle with implementation in a game like ours is that it's small. It hasn't always been small, it won't necessarily always be small, but right now we regularly have fewer than ten players at a given session. I think there is some credence to the notion that, in a game that small, when the entire game is often all together in the same scene, separating one player from another player's experience of Harano is really not practical, especially given the all-consuming nature of Harano.

If Harano were something that were only dealt with by packs having private scenes with their packmates, that is easy to compartmentalize. But a Garou in Harano is struggling every moment of every day. If the whole sept rolls off to fight a giant monster and the werewolf in Harano gets talked into coming along by their pack, isn't it going to affect how they fight? How they plan? How they deal with what happens afterwards? I think it's unfair to ask the player whose character is experiencing Harano to "shut off" that experience and not roleplay it while interacting with the game at large. I think it's also unfair to ask the player is who is OOC Not Okay with Harano RP to leave whole game scenes when the character with Harano is present, or just "ignore it" or something.

Frankly, I think Steph's suggestion of making a public statement of genre values in our House Rules is the best solution (e.g., as Tom said, we don't do rape, we don't do Harano) as it makes expectations clear for new players. All the same, Harano is a part of genre and I think it has useful cathartic and therapeutic roleplay potential, and I don't want to quash that.

How would people feel about a rule along these lines (I literally came up with this in last five minutes and it's not intended to be final or perfect, please critique away): If you feel your character may be in danger of succumbing to Harano, and are interested in experiencing that roleplay, please reach out to your ST's and the players of characters closest or most relevant to your character's experience about that. Check in with them about their comfort levels roleplaying around this serious and emotionally fraught topic. After doing so, you may have a private scene or scenes, in person or on the boards, with those players and ST's who have consented to participate, wherein your character explores their feelings and talks about them with others, or even undergoes journeys or trials with ST assistance related to dealing with Harano.

HOWEVER, once you have begun these scenes, the character cannot be played at a live Rage Across the Cape game unless explicit consent is given by all attending players. The character is not shelved, dead, or any other such thing and may still be played in private scenes (live or online) and the player will not be penalized attendance XP for respecting the boundaries of other players in this way.

[Berek (ST)]

Matt, this tracks well with how I've been trying to parse this issue and any solution to it. I totally understand people who need game to be a complete escape from real world issues, but yeah, we absolutely don't want to excise a core part of the horror of the setting.

[Kiara]

I actually think that is a really good idea for a rules set that allows for harano while letting others opt out, and makes for interesting role play in that scenario while still protecting players who dont want to deal with it.

[Nike 'Slays the Patriarchy' Strilakos]

i think that makes sense, if you think that folks would be ok with basically having thier character not be played live in a game in such situations?

[Conor (Former ST)]

Matt,

I see what you're getting at, but I am pretty well against that sort of thing.  We don't, to my knowledge, require anything remotely like that for any other form of content.  I mean, I'm into "hey so this is some heavy stuff and I would like to play around with it, how do y'all feel about it?" levels of checkins, and I think those are, y'know, polite and good form and things I'd like to encourage.  But I'm not at all comfortable with the level of hard requirements in your paragraph just now.

[Matt (HST)]

Oh yeah, this is definitely a blunt tool. But I'm thinking of the situation wherein someone does the responsible check-in thing, as Conor outlines, and someone else says "no, I'm really not comfortable with that" and the first person says, "well I'd really like to play it." So, what happens there? What do you suggest? State our values, and then always adjudicate on a case-by-case basis?

[Lakota]

HOWEVER, once you have begun these scenes, the character cannot be played at a live Rage Across the Cape game unless explicit consent is given by all attending players. The character is not shelved, dead, or any other such thing and may still be played in private scenes (live or online) and the player will not be penalized attendance XP for respecting the boundaries of other players in this way.

I like what Matt is getting at, but I think that the above is too hard and fast a rule, specifically because not all players are regularly on the boards so getting an advance okay from all attending players could be impossible. There for a player could come to game and be put into a situation they are not comfortable with because they aren't on the boards regularly, or a player could come to game expecting to be able to play Harano only to find out that another player who is not on the boards is there and is uncomfortable.

I think given the nature of the RPGs there is always the possibility that you may be faced with a situation IC that you are not comfortable with OCC, this has happened to me, it has probably happened to all of us. It's one of those cases where sometimes our OCC lives have to dictate what our IC personas do.

I think if you choose to RP Harano then you have to expect that playing that at a live game will be hard, that there will be players who do not interact with you because of it, either for IC or OCC reasons. You may find yourself alone while the rest of the spet goes off to do something.

It may be better to state something along the lines of that once you have begun harano you must work with the ST staff to determine your level of involvement in live games, i.e. how your harano is manifesting. If said player plans on attending a live game then a general announcement should be made on the board and on Facebook so that at least some players can be prepared and the ST staff and the player should have plot contingencies so that said player can be left alone without being deprived of RP opportunities.

[Kiara]

I think being this clear about rules situations leaves out the dichotomy of favoritism and I fully support it. I think the small game argument makes this really hard to deal with on a "you should expect to occasionally be uncomfortable" level. We have at most 10 players. This means 1 player being uncomfortable is 10% of the game which makes these rules reasonable. I think in a situation like playing harano that makes sense as a rule if our normal baseline is "hand over your sheet your character never plays again." I would also like to note that this doesn't say anything about the player coming back from harano being kept from the game. I think it's a better place to be than Character Death.

[Seven Mountains]

Perhaps I am a bit out of touch here but maybe I am missing something as well.

Is this an issue of players being uncomfortable being in a scene in which some topic, in this case depression to the depth of Harano makes them uncomfortable? Is that the full scope of the issue?

I am asking because Harano impacts next to no Garou in the world, next to none, nearly zero. The number of Harano Garou in Canon is only slightly higher than Abominations and Legends who are still breathing.

So I know I have not been to a game in a while and perhaps my expectations of what Harano is might be too high but it isn't depression, as another person who suffer from depression, Harano makes depression look like a lullaby. I'd be happy to discuss this at length but my description may be uncomfortable for some people.

Harano should be a tool that is HST only with discussion with the Player, no chops, it should happen once every 5 or so game years at best, it should only happen to PC's whose characters are old enough to understand the depths of their connection to Gaia and true loss, so Athro or above, and it should be a MAGNIFICIENT storyline in which the whole sept is working to pull them through it and out the other end.

Entire packs come together to save Garou on the brink of Harano, CoG send delegations to help pull Garou off of the brink of Harano. It's one of the greatest tools in the ST's arsenal to lean on an older Character with, it's what makes the Rite of the Winter Wolf look like a GOOD IDEA comparatively.

It's a tool

It's an egg

Respect it and treat it like both