RAtC and Discussion of Game Type

[Mike]

I am opening this up to all people on the boards not just the RAtC only characters
I would like to hear everyone's opinions

Rules:

1) No mentioning of direct people nor Character's
2) No flaming, swearing, or rude responses
3)If you don't respond I will assume you do not care either way

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Recently I have received numerous opinions on the certain types of role paying that has been seen here at RAtC.
I have people who enjoy the relaxed role playing and people who enjoy the harder edge of WoD.
Unfortunately these two types of views on our genre are currently butting heads in our game.

It's an issue the ST staff would very much like to rectify.

Every Game I receive commentary that the game was either too combat heavy or too combat light.
1/2 of my players want to see plot that has then thinking through issues, talking about them, solving puzzles, interacting with each other, etc.
The other 1/2 loves combat, combat with enemies, cobat with each other, working up flaws, pointing out shortcomings etc.

These two styles are clashing and it's causing a rift in the game that I do not want to see grow anymore then it already has.
I'm looking for opinions of the players on how they think this can be rectified, how would you as a HST approach the subject and try and work through the issue.

What would you like to get out of RAtC, accomplish as a role player, receive from the staff.

Please Please Please respond to this, RAtC is your game and we want you to get the best experience possible here.

[Becca]

I wouldn't have responded, but you said everyone, not just RAtC, so here goes.

My absolute favorite of the plots you ran in Hidden Flame back when you were STing and I was just a player was the plot with the puzzle games and a NPC in a mental ward. Plots you can think out can be a ton of fun. However, I have seen several puzzle plots in games, both Garou and Vamp Genre, under a variety of STs where the plot spiraled out of control because things that the ST thought should be obvious the players simply couldn't get, not through lack of intelliegence, but simply because they could not get into the same mindset as the ST. This happened in the Vampire game I was in about a year ago with a Demon plot that the Tremere spent almost two years trying to figure out through different means, but that had only one possible solution that none of the PCs had the background information to crack even thought the STs believed that they did. This type of situation leads to ALOT of frustration, both on the STs part and on the players part. I don't think any ST is immune to this. I know I've had a plot go bad that way, as has Jason, so please don't think I'm saying this is something that is bad in your game. I have no idea if it is happening in your game. It is just the way I've seen these plots, that are otherwise awesome, go horribly wrong.

As far as combat goes, in Garou you pretty much have to have at least some. Otherwise your Ahrouns can never advance in Rank. But when every game turns into a neverending round of mass combat I think you lose a lot. Among other things you lose a lot of RP time as a scene that IC takes less than a minute will OOC take 2 hours to run because of Rage Actions and such. I know Philly is experimenting with new optional rules to streamline mass combat. If you would like I can ask for a copy of their optional rules and post them here.

[Alexander Amarandus van Bokkelen]

I tend to like the World of Dimness.  Not full-on, everybody-dies-the-world-is-bleak World of Darkness, but trending a little on the depressing side.  Call this the middle-of-the-road response.

Playing an Ahroun I require some combat to be in my story.  It doesn't always need to be an hour of chops, Owen's revel which was narrated in a single sentence was pretty good, but as a character who's defined by violence even more than a normal Garou, I need to have engaged in some so that I can sit around talking about it the rest of the time.  (This was a problem for my first few games -- after last game I could go all next game without swinging at anything and be perfectly happy.)  I suspect things might be better if combat were less often mass combat, which is complicated and can be slowed down by anything, but I realize that doing it in different ways also requires even more of the staff, and y'all already work pretty hard.

[Mike]

Thanks both of you for your reponses.

Becca the game is being passed on to a new HST so I will let them inquire if they so chose of the alternate rulings

Conor Definitely understand the Ahroun side of things, and we definitely would have Glorious things to accomplish for the players now matter which direction the game takes.

[Carter Heyward]

This game is Werewolf: The Apocalypse. There will always be combat, but at the moment the game feels to me too combat heavy, a bit of a monster-of-the-week game. A bit too much like this is a game of numbers, and whose combat penis is the biggest. If I want to play D&D, I'll play D&D. When I play Werewolf I want something deeper, something of spirituality of the game, the weirdness that is the Umbra, solutions that don't necessarily involve combat and I just don't feel like the game is that.

I also think the idea that the 'harder edge of WoD' meaning combat is just plain wrong. That's so shortsighted I don't even know where to start with it.

On a different note, I wouldn't mind if the Renown was toned down. I have 10 permanent in one category, but hardly feel like I've done the deeds to deserve it.

[[more when I'm not hopped on allergy drugs]]

[Marcus]

I think as well that mass-Sept-wide combats do not need to happen every game; it would be nice to see Pack level combats more... roleplay is just as important, although Werewolf definitely needs more combat than, say, Vampire.

The 'darkness' I am looking for in WoD games is not served mainly by combat, but by the difficulty required to affect long-term positive change in the world. Personal/Tribal/etc inter-PC conflict is central to a WoD game, it is also an integral part of the 'darkness'. Do keep in mind, though, that all of the Auspices have key roles to advance their characters (Xp-wise as well as character development-wise) in non-combat functions... largely excepting the Ahroun; to run things in such a way as to minimize the importance of 20% of the Garou would be a disservice.

I also agree that Renown is accumulated far too quickly, and lost far too infrequently. Many seem to be of the opinion that Renown loss is a punishment...it isn't. Renown is a gauge of how much responsability a given Garou can/should be entrusted with, which is why it's the basis for Rank.

One issue I see as to the 'lack' of spiritual development is that we are almost always in the Umbra; this to me seems to trivialize the Spirit World to a degree...how sacred can it be if we're always there? Also, I think that Spirits being more difficult to interact with would serve the game in a number of ways: it's easier to have reverance for something when you cannot so easily interact with it; the Theurges would be more important as our link to the Spirit World and it's denizens, making it easier to see them as Priests/Mystics/etc. I feel that this can be accomplished in (among others) the following ways: most Gafflings should be incapable of any speech BUT Spirit Speech; the Spirits should be reticent to speak to any, even w/ SS, who aren't theurges; their behavior and mindset should be more alien/less understandable in human terms.

The core books include stereotyping based on Tribe, Breed, etc for a reason: conflict adds to a game in a roleplay fashion. I feel that ignoring those stereotypes does a disservice not only to the game as a whole, but to many players as well. Why would someone choose to play a Metis, or Bone Gnawer, if they DIDN'T want to have to struggle against prejudice? Chosing to ignore the general views most Garou have of various others may seem like being nice to the players of such, but I put forth that you are actually detracting from their game experience. Off the top of my head, I cannot think of any single thing that steeped me in the atmosphere of the game so much as Calvin's treatment of my Pack when we first arrived; if he had just been friendly with us up front I would have felt cheated of an important aspect of the game.

Just my two cents (only actually worth$0.0003, adjusted for inflation)

[Arianna_Fireau]

I hate combat. Hell. I'm currently playing a combat monkey Ahroun and I still hate combat. I hate the mechanics of throwing chop and I hate the mindlessness of "I hit it! Rock, Paper, Scissors, Go! Oh! Oh! Retest! Let's do it again! Wheeeee!". I do not feel like I am roleplaying. I am playing Rock, Paper, Scissors. I would so much rather Role Play. Working through Puzzles, interacting with NPCs that aren't just there for Hack and Slash mentality.

My very favorite Rage Across the Cape scene... Well there were two. The first was when we all got together and "played Lazer Gate" for the first time. There was so much thinking and puzzling and what do we do, what don't we do. Do we steal the computer, how do we distract the guards, how does this not turn into a Veil Breach. My second was the scene with the Vampire factory who bought the Metis when we were fighting the Ghouls of the Setites. When Ari got sent in as a decoy. And yeah. That ended in Combat. But it wasn't all about combat. There was something else too. There was an element of mystery and puzzle. Because honestly I think there is more to the World of Darkness than horrific death scenes and scary monsters. Yeah. Images of dying children are terrible but there is more to darkness than that.

So... Yeah. I hate combat. And I feel like Rage Across The Cape has descended far too much into sheets and chops. I want to go back to puzzles and investigating. It was three or four games before Arianna ever saw rounds when I first joined... And now there's at least one mass combat every game. Not including Moots, which are another animal all together.

And I know this isn't a staff issue but this is an issue about game. I hate PVP. I hate it more than I can ever explain to you. This is why I stopped playing Vampire, because Vampire is all sneaky intrigue stab you in the back keep your friends close but your enemies closer. This is why I have been having less and less fun at Rage Across the Cape. Because it is becoming centered more and more around PVP. When you're spending Exp to stay alive not because of the Wyrm but because you have to wonder if your Septmates are going to turn around and attack you in battle... That's not fun for me. There's no gothic horror in that. That's not suspense. That's... just not fun for me.

I will say that I miss game when it was about puzzles and investigation. Half of the reason I shelved Arianna is because every game was Combat. Every game was another monster of the week. And that's not the game for her. I miss breaking into buildings and stealing computers. I miss trying to sell Calvin to the netspiders in exchange for information. I miss trying to figure out how the hell we were going to get rid of the MASSIVE Wyrm Taint that was coming from under our Sept or the Wyld Vortex. I miss that game. I miss those plots. I miss not being afraid of the other characters initiating a combat that I can't hope to survive because my character was built to be healing on the back lines. Yes. A tank Ahroun is going to win in that combat. And it gets hard to roleplay when you know that if you offend a certain class of play they're just going to wait for the excuse to kill you.

I miss game before that. I miss puzzles and intrigue and questions and suspense.

I mean... Come on. The game before I joined you guys had a movie theatre set up in Marc and Joe's backyard with popcorn and evil Wyrm movies. And we played a mock game of Lazer Gate where Calvin stood there and scowled.

...

I miss that.

That's what I want to see return to our game.

((And with that I'm off to work. Possibly more later if I think of it.))

[Lakota]

I enjoy a mix of combat and non combat games. But I really like games where players also have to think to solve the problem. One example from Hidden Flame was the game where a bunch of us went and had to find a way to get a stone heart out of a sand painting (I understand that any of you not there wont get that, but I did place the story on here somewhere). Everyone in that scene had something to do, and every one had to work together and use their brains.

I've been feeling lately like if you want thinking plot you have to play on the boards and if you want combat go to game - though recently the boards have been getting more combat heavy too. This would be fine, except I don't have all day to spend on the boards and I rarely use my computer at night for fun (mostly just class work).

This is a game about werewolves and as such combat is going to happen, were big fuzzy and full of rage. I think more small group combats would be nice, and they move a bit faster then large scale combats - at least marginally. They also allow for more pack work and I am guessing are a bit easier to handle for the STs.

Basically, I want a plot for each game, but that plot does not have to be massive combat, in fact some scouting, fact finding, puzzle solving plots would be nice.

While it is important to keep some combat for the Ahrouns not all of the characters in the game are combat characters - they have other skills which they aren't getting to utilize because the games have been combat centered lately. We have a lot of Ahrouns, but we have a good mix of the other auspices too.  Lakota for one is capable of combat, but that is not what she was originally designed around, and it would be nice to use some other skills.

[Erik Bridge]

This is my take of the balance of physical, social, and mental aspects of Werewolf.  The werewolf world is a fine balance between the three, and all three are required, even to an ahroun.  That balance is required to a game.  Any game where the only answer to a problem is one of those will leave the members of the third out, and board.  The best games are the ones that can allow for more then one solution to the problem, and see that sometimes the players can come up with new answers that the ST team didn't.  This can allow for a fluid game, and more fun for the players
One the same token, but the other side, is that if people aren't having fun, either the play if feeling bullied, or that rules are being changed to suit other players, then those concerns need to be listened to.  People need to understand that their enjoyment is not they only thing that matters, that winning isn't the only thing that matters.  They must bear in mind that we all have the same over all goal, and that isn't to gain renown or to have an impressive title, but to find a solution to the problem of the dying of Gaia.

As to the gain/loss of renown.  part of the reason that challenges for renown are needed is because that is what makes the gain meaningful.  If the threat of not making it isn't there, then what does that make the renown good for?  The loss of that same renown should be likewise scary.  If there is no repercussions for your actions, then we lose the meaning of failure.  That lose should be just a public as the gains.

There, I've said my peace.

[Ash 'Flirts With Danger']

Wow, this is going to be surreal for me to write . . .

Contrary to popular belief (and maybe even my own initial beliefs), I actually like a little combat in my games.  (Who'd a thunk it?)  Especially in Werewolf.  I think the opportunity for combat reminds me of the inherent primal nature of my character -- and in an odd way, keeps me grounded.

I like it as an element of a game.  When it dominates any one game -- unless I've some warning beforehand that it's going to be a big "lets smack down the bad guys" game -- is when I become less interested.

A great example of this, for me, was the very first game I was in.  That game involved at least some of everything I enjoy: interpersonal interaction, political machinations, investigative work, puzzles, and combat.  I participated in almost all of it, and it left me reminded that violent action is one of the tools Garou have at their disposal.

Since then, I feel as though combat has taken a larger role in the past few sessions, and while I haven't been bored, per se, I started to wonder if I'd been right all along about Werewolf not being my WoD setting.

So that's where I stand.  I'd like to see most games have a mix of combat and non-combat, either in terms of time (first we go kill this thing and then we sort out how it set up this intricate puzzle that will have this poor outcome if we leave it as-is) or in terms of plot distribution ("Who wants to go have a conversation with a roaming pack outside its sept?  Ok, now who wants to kill the bane?").  I'd like to see a few games have no combat at all.  And I think it makes sense to, every once in a while, have a game where combat is featured.  Like anything else.

[Alexander Amarandus van Bokkelen]

In the hopes that this kind of discussion is fair game, and in belief that we can do this and be chill about it:

They must bear in mind that we all have the same over all goal, and that isn't to gain renown or to have an impressive title, but to find a solution to the problem of the dying of Gaia.

Y'know, I used to think this, too.  I've since discovered that if all the characters in a game really do have a unifying goal, and never spend any time in conflict with each other, you're essentially playing a really big tabletop game with walking.  This isn't necessarily bad - I like tabletop games - but every time two players keep each other busy, that's that much less work for the staff.

I like playing the Child of Gaia that wants everyone to cooperate, but it turns out that if you ever actually pull it off, the game becomes a lot less interesting.

[Thoth]

I like a mix of both, although leaning towards non frontal assault combat.   Not succeeding every time and having to work hard for it is great.  Blowing all my skills, gifts and tricks to get nothing is not worth coming to game for. 

I've seen the game have a fair balance of combat, puzzles, interaction, and much more.  If the players and the staff don't make it, it doesn't happen.

More laters....

[Lucky Wolf]

I am responding because I do care about the issue at hand, but at the moment I do not feel that I can put to words what I like happening and what I would like to see occur. If this thread stays open when I get my appifany, then I shall post a more meaning and coherent response.

[Mike]

I really appreciate everyone's responses they have been well thought out and highly positive.
It's great to see Players taking the initiative in their own game to keep it running smoothly.
So often its left to the ST staff to handle these things alone, setting up the higher chance for failure.

Ideally my form of role playing and what I have tried to impress on my staff is a whole mix of everything.
Part of the problem I'm running into is I only have three people willing to forgo their characters at game and run plots.
Soon it will be just two people as I really wanna play with the players of Rage Across the Cape.
I would love to run scenes for whole packs and separate that out, but with three ST's with individual packs it leaves a whole bunch of players unattended to.
So translation we end up with HUGE scenes.  I'm not even sure if anyone out there wants to be staff and leave their characters at the door for most of game.
I know none of my narrators currently want that leaving just Myself, Joe, and Marc.

One of the dangerous roads I see this game going is we're becoming more of a forums game then a LARP and that's not a very good thing.
Players who can't be on the forums are getting run over by the 24/7 game running on the boards.
There has been talk of daily post limits, or scene limits, however that is a lot of policing the staff has to do.
Most of us signed up to ST for this game once a month.  I enjoy forums play but the pressures and time needed to dedicate becomes larger every month.

I do apologize to the players for my recent Big Bang Plots.  Its not very original of me and I will work to improve over the last few months you have with me as your HST.

now onto PVP as Kat put it (you play wow too much)
Players versus Players is going to happen, and it should happen.
I think it may be happening to a far greater extreme for my tastes as well, but there is very little a ST staff can do to dampen it.
The Players Pick there tribes, auspices, breeds, FLAWS, Demeanors and Natures.  They are going to Clash!
Rank plays a big part as well, one of the things I don't like in this game is how very little rank matters.
Rank should be observed and in this game it seems people prefer to have the characters want Rank proved to them before they listen.
That's not how it works.  You having that Rank proves it flat out.  If a Garou is not acting their rank there are ways to go about making them.
If a Fostern Theurge walks up to a Cliath Ahroun and throws around their weight, they should submit to it.  There shouldn't be any question.
This game Ive seen a Cliath tell an Athro to "f*** off".  Seriously that's pretty much the most Genre Breaking thing I have ever seen.
Garou don't stand there and disrespect an elder just because well they haven't proved their rank to your character.
A lot of people forget they have Flaws on their sheet that are highly visible.
If you have One Eye, Three Eyes, Scaly Skin, Albinos, Glow green like the Wyrm in the Umbra, smell like toxic waste, don't smell at all, you're strange.
You're different and character's will treat you different, Most will not treat you nicely.

Sorry for the long rant

[Mass Trauma NPC]

I'm going to preface this with the fact that my WoD background is a bit odd. I've experienced tabletop where "Oh lord we survived that?!" is the normal game. As for MET I came over from a very crack-smoking game.  This leaves me with two oddities, I like a hard game. I don't mean combat must be filled with Thunder Wyrms and Nexus Crawlers. I mean there should be plot where you need to chose the lesser of two evils. Do you kill the infant metis you find in the hive or do you face the shame and trials of raising it? Neither answer is good. The other is a guilty pleasure. I like a little crack in my Werewolf from time to time. I don't mean I want to charge in and single handedly take down a Moloke, but I'm not a player that has gone through a decade of playing this game and has seen it all. Throw cliche plot at me, I won't realize it's been done a hundred times over. "What? There's a Spiral Ronin? Surely he won't turn on us!" It might seem pointless to others, but some of us haven't had the pleasure of trying vanilla.

  While I understand the draw away from PvP, it's what happens. Shadow Lords scheme plot and plan then stab you in the back. Fenrir, Red Talons and Wendigo are full of rage and frenzy even on their friends if they are not cautious. The only ones really who it would be odd not to have tribal conflict are the Coggies and Stargazers.  I don't think the game should center upon this, I think maybe it could even be toned down a bit. But I do think it's a part of the game.

Combat wise I think there should be less and more. Less mass combat, I think we all agree on that. Combat the wyrm is usually literal for Fenrir, but what about glasswalkers using their influence to reshape the political environment so that the local park doesn't get turned into a parking lot. Or the bonegnawers in the area making sure the homeless are safe and taken care of. Granted that might mean taking down the serial killer who's killing them, but even in that there's tracking the enemy down and trying to figure out where he'll strike next to ambush him. Plot like that is better for smaller groups promoting a 1-3 packs working towards the goal and not all necessarily at the same time.

As for spreading the game out with combat and non-combat, I personally am tired of moots, which is sad for me because they used to be my favorite part. I know it's been said before but I'd like to bring it up again. We could easily have one game every few months that is a moot. That would give time for issues to build up or be forgotten. That way anything that makes it to breaking of the bone is important and emotional, not discussing the business of the day. Stories could actually be told and a revel planned and held. The LARP I started in and was used to was a weekend long event, half of one day would usually end up being moot. Sitting around a fire at night gave it the feel of being a mysterious ritual. I know we can't exactly do that in this game more than once or twice a year, but holding it every game takes a bit of the fun out of it.

That would be my general rant on how I would like the game to go in general. If things don't go that way I'm not going to leave the game over it. I can cope. The topic of what I want from the game may affect me a bit more: I want personal plot. I will do my best not to sound like a whiney bitch but I've been trying to get Camp plot started and only today did I figure out a way to force it into action. I understand the reasoning behind it but it's still annoying.

[Lakota]

Some more cents put in.

I agree with both Kat and Mike and TPO Rory.

PVP can be fun and stimulating, but it if gets too much like Vamp all the time I won't be happy. Vamp literally gave me a migraine each time I played. So far that hasn't happened in this game and I don't really think it will, but it is tough to relax and play if you think your character will be stabbed in the back for the smallest slight - when that starts happening the games becomes increasingly political and much less. "how do we all learn to work together even if we would rather tear each other apart". I had a great scene with Tom when I first brought Lakota to this game where Garrett asked Lakota why she was so nice. Her basic response boiled down to as much as I hate what the white people did to my people how does that hatred help me defend Gaia? - It is that struggle and how we interact that interests me more.

I completely agree with Mike TPO Rory on renown and rank.  As a Galliard renown plays a big part in our auspice duties. Our stories are supposed to have an affect. Having a Galliard tell stories about you can either increase your renown if they are good, or strip you of it if the stories are uncomplimentary. As a player I have no way of knowing if the staff is following up on this, but it seems to me like many of the players in this game don't really consider their renown as something that is hard to earn, or preciously kept. As a player I worked my ass off to get Lakota the renown that got her to this point, and Lakota takes renown gains and losses seriously. Before coming to this game I challenged for almost every dot of permanent renown I had. Its why we have the Rite of Accomplishment - or at least that is always how I played it.

The same token goes for Rank. It is something that is recognized not something that constantly has to be proven. If we take our rank system much like wolves you don't constantly see wolves in higher stations proving themselves to those lower in rank. Those lower in rank respect those of higher rank and only challenge them when they seek to advance. This problem of people not recognizing rank is something I have seen in numerous games and is not something new to RAtC.. However, I see it a LOT here. If someone has gained a rank higher then yours, you recognize that rank whether or not you feel they deserve it. There are lots of ways to roll play that out, other then directly attacking or ignoring the orders of the character giving them.

[Dex]

Wow. That's... a lot of very long explanations.

Mine is short. Ahem:

There is too much combat, and too much infighting. I play an Ahroun too, so I like a little combat once in a while, but mass combat is boring and too much of it makes it meaningless. I like to think about problems and be creative to get around them, or get involved in some shenanigans that aren't somehow going to cause us all to die. Little less dark, little less stabby, and I will probably have more fun.

Also:

I hate PVP. I hate it more than I can ever explain to you. This is why I stopped playing Vampire, because Vampire is all sneaky intrigue stab you in the back keep your friends close but your enemies closer. This is why I have been having less and less fun at Rage Across the Cape. Because it is becoming centered more and more around PVP. When you're spending Exp to stay alive not because of the Wyrm but because you have to wonder if your Septmates are going to turn around and attack you in battle... That's not fun for me. There's no gothic horror in that. That's not suspense.

QFT. But if you're gonna do PVP, make it be about outsmarting someone rather than out-muscling them, too.

[Kirsten Egil]

Alright - because it's being asked, I will answer.

Combat vs. non-combat is the wrong question to be asking. This will not get you the kind of results you're looking for.

The essential question that should be asked is, "Why must all the plots have a pre-determined course of resolution?"

When a plot is written with a sufficient level of expertise, its resolution is completely contingent upon its interpretation by the characters, through their personality types and the experiences they've had while moving through the plot as it unfolds over the course of time. I have yet to see such a plot presented at RAtC.

Learn how to write and present better plots, and each player will  gravitate towards the plots that their characters most want to tackle. In this process it will become clear which characters prefer non-combat methods and which prefer combat, and then you will see allegiances built / allies made / friendships developed among the characters. You will also see that each player can have the combat or non-combat experiences they're looking for without compromising other players' fun.

In short, stop railroading your plots and let the us players determine how situations are resolved by our characters.

[Arianna_Fireau]

To politely disagree, Janet, I've seen several open-ended plots. I believe the the Bunyip one was designed for us to try to kill them... And the Stargazer made friends.  -.-

And there have been other plots with open ends... It's just been this games natural reaction recently to go ZOMGCOMBAT. I mean... I'd offer the Ananasi, who was sort of an ally to the Sept and yet was killed almost instantly, as an example.  There have been other plots that have been dealt with in Creative ways. Avalon, for instance?

[Kirsten Egil]

I believe the the Bunyip one was designed for us to try to kill them...

You are, in fact, agreeing with me. Plots are "designed" for a certain pre-determined method of resolution. It's the predetermination of how a plot is "designed" to resolve that needs addressing.

With more sophisticated plot writing and presentation, the issue being presented here for discussion will go a long way towards being resolved.

[Arianna_Fireau]

But you can still work through them in a different light, no matter how they're geared. Sometimes it's up to the STs to make the box and for the players to jump outside of it.

((*Tips hat to Shulamith*))

[Kirsten Egil]

The question was asked, I have answered it.

After running LARP events for 18 years, all across the country, for players from all around the world, to the highest accolades from the most notable personalities in the hobby, I've learned a few things about the living breath of storytelling and how each word, each thought, affects the unfolding of a group improv theater production.

I am happy to discuss LARP theory in greater depth with whomever wishes to learn.

[Marcus]

One point of note on the 'Rank' issue. I think as a direct correlation to the ease with which people's characters have gained Renown, there naturally follows a view among some that certain characters do not, in fact, DESERVE their Rank; that will have an unavoidable effect on the level of respect given. To give an example...(and I will admit to a rather hyperbolic level of exagguration): if you knew that a particular Garou's challenge for Fostern was to slice a loaf of bread into 12 pieces, would you as a Cliath respect their Rank? Again, this is an obviously silly example, but it is intended to show why, I feel, there is a lack of respect IG for certain character's Rank...those who are acting such probably feel that the individual in question did not truly DESERVE or EARN their Rank. To note: the Litany does NOT state  "submission to those of higher Rank", it says  "submission to those of higher Station"...clearly the two do NOT mean the same thing.

[Ryan McKenna]

So, I do agree sometimes its a bit combat heavy sometimes and others almost seems like there is little to do. Face it though we're playing a game in which characters are creatures born and bred to fight and die. So combat is an integral part of the life of every garou and, while the some players don't like combat then, maybe kinfolk should be a playable option.

Though, my one other sticking point is this, not every threat we should face should be Wyrm or Weaver, humanity is as much a threat to itself and Gaia as any bane. There is no real human element to the game, we're always fighting the Wyrm and Weaver and its always straight forward. While combat is fun there seems to be a lack of challenge, moral, ethical and spiritual conflict is as much a part of the World of Darkness as a throw down tare up fight.

Thirdly, why is it that combat can't have an intelligent bent? Or an ethical or moral or even spiritual conflict? Ethics and morals might not come into play as much for the lupis, but those of us playing Homid born from developed countries are all ingrained through our family lives and education to follow or at least acknowledge the ethical and moral codes we learn and observe. Where is the crisis of conscious when the homid born garou is forced  into a situation where their ethics and morals are put into direct conflict with their duties as garou?

So ya I'll sum up, combat is a huge part of what it is to be garou, but the wyrm and weaver are their only foes. Just a thought.

[Baron Tarl]

I shall speak briefly on PVP as its the one topic i sadly know the best in my travels.

Benji, Mike, and the rest of this crew can attest to this.

We all know i playTtarl, and tarl is an evil evil creature manifested from the pits of hell itself.

To preface this let me show you exactly where Tarl and icomes from on this topic.

Tarl within three months of char gen slew his first PC. An idiot fenrir who did something retarded and tarl did the jacking in  second.
Since then i have killed more pcs in direct PC on PC confrontations then most games have killed PCs.  The only one with a higher body count which rivals/excedes tarl's is Juile's and we both stopped counting along time ago.

When i refer to PVP i mean direct confrontation with the result being Death.

There are other forms of player vs player competition gamecraft challenges, storytelling etc things of conflict but not of death.
Packs constnatly rival with each other working to one up and be the best, Natural wolf instinct to be the best pack, to be the alpha for some others are fine with their roles.

When one draws silver on another garou on a challenge mound, challenges someone to teh death, or performs "ye olde boot party" i have often said make sure that there are no other options, be prepared for the tears, and don't break commitment halfwy through.  Because if you as a player stop halfway through a killing unless somethign comes out that stops you, like nor eally they didn't kill your mate.

People who casually engage in PVP i personally detest those who fly off the handles and go for lethal combat immediatly. And i play the most intolerant SOB in this org. But i don't go around randomly kiling metis, urrah, children of gaia cause they all annoy me; silverfang metis being the exception to the policy Such boundaries i think eveyr player should have what would they really kill another gaian garou for.

That's the second question i have my players formulate as an ST, the first still remains "When will you Rage"

Dan
Whose first LARP PC was a child of gaia.

[Eset]

ok... I'm going to respond before reading because I want to say my thoughts before getting sidetracked by everyone else's thoughts.

1. Mass combat... WAY overdone... at least 1-2 hours each game is mass combat... it feels like the game plot is culminated each game by mass combat either in 1 or 2 large groups. Combat good. I am not playing a combat character, yet it is WEREWOLF... it is THE most combat oriented game in World of Darkness... there should be combat. Every single garou (even the blind ones) get a bulky 9 ft tall walking carpet of death form and can do AG. EB has never played a combat character. I've played ragabash and galliard and theurge and philodox, but never an ahroun. I think smaller combats... more intellectual combats... something that those with lores can figure out stuff and be useful... things we don't just go in guns-a-blazing, but have to plan and prep... maybe us going out and strategic planning etc... IE we go out and attack something... offensive vs defensive... the sept group together everyone uses what they do best and plan... that would be good. Small combats... good... combats that aren't always us attacking a big spirit... since I've been here... we have yet to fight something other than a huge mass combat spirit... the pygmies... the pollution bane... the thing in the water... the thunder wyrm... it would be fun to fight things other than massive spirits...

2. Player vs player stuff...     It is world of darkness... expect not everyone to like you.  I expect Edina not to like the metis... the first game I was at Marcus threatened me... I'm playing a metis... I expect that there are going to be garou who don't like Coatlicue just because she is metis... and yes in game she might be upset about it... it hurts to have people call you dirty and mock you cause you are bald and your skin flakes off... heck last game I got growled at because a certain (cough cough modi cough cough) said I was standing too close and my dead skin was "falling" on his sword.  Many of the purelanders aren't going to like the not-purelanders.... many of the not-purelanders will look down on the purelanders... the windigo will be pissy at everyone... most likely also will be the fenrir... everyone will distrust the Uktena cause they are sneaky and delve into dark stuff that is creapy and hide stuff... everyone will distrust the shadowlords... cause they are shadowlords... there are stereotypes for a reason...  If you really really don't like a character... wow that is great! it makes for good role playing.

3. Happy happy kumbaya.... World of darkness is not happy happy kumbaya. I have been at death's door every single month. Good job STs... yeah does it get angsty... of course it does... yeah do bad things happen... of course they do... but there is more of a sense of accomplishment when you solve something difficult or overcome something.

4. moots. Ok.... about moots. Moots are great and all, but it takes 2+ out of EVERY game on a moot.... not much really happens that impacts the game... I'm opposed to moots every month. I think moots should be a whole game. yes even the revel... Plan it...  so that the people who are going to do things can prepare and practice... I think the stories should be done on the boards yes... of course they should...

5. Renown ok... It is great and all to  gain static renown, but it lets people who show up to game and do nothing gain the same renown as those who do a lot... it isn't renown... rank is a hollow title... and Rank is not the same as station... station is something that can be either enforced, or proved by actions of respect... it is hard to respect rank, when renown is like candy handed out even if you don't deserve it... I would rather gain renown slower... and have it mean something. and also I'm a big fan of knowing exactly what people earn renown for (yeah yeah other than shadow courts and the like) but other than that... renown is something the nation knows you did good and acknowledges the specific things you did good.

6. online stuff   Ok I know there are mixed feelings on online stuff... I happen to be a fan of online forums. It allows for character development and interaction. I personally think that this is all it should be...  I'm sorry online players but I  am not a fan of online plot. I don't think STs should have online plot. I think the forums should be for getting things done over the month and soft role play... I don't think there should be combat. I'm all in favor of the ST ruling on this. I think it is WAY too long, tedious and complicated. 100% annoying and aggravating. all the days it takes to get through a few silly rounds of combat is sickening and annoying. Both for the players and I'm sure the STs. I think anytime there is combat it should be scene paused and combat done at game... I do think however certain things should be allowed...like checks for truth of gaia... sense wyrm etc.

7.  IN vs OOG Characters and Players.... Ok... players are not characters. there are some people that have definite issues with distinguishing this... I have heard more than once players saying things about other players because they didn't like what the character did... Also just because you have an issue oog with someone... doesn't mean your character would have issues IG with their character...  heah... if someone wants to play an asshole... doesn't mean the player is an asshole... don't expect everyone to be playing a coggie... there are different traditions for a reason... traditions and viewpoints are good... It doesn't makes sense that you play one character, then you play a new character and instantly click will all the characters you were clicky clicky with before you are clicky clicky with again... instantly... or... the same characters you didn't like before... you instantly don't like either... it just doesn't make sense...

8. Plot... I would like plot that isn't all combat... I really liked the first game how the rage boxes... those were really interesting. I was kinda pissed that just as we were investigating them... they got taken away from us... what good is plot if it just gets taken away from you? I think mini plots for packs... good.... bigger plots for allied packs... good.... I think what Owen did was great (like 2 games ago) he separated garou into packs and groups of packs and sent them off to accomplish goals... this was awesome... the combat was do-able and not overwhelming... plots with more thinking would be good... plots set up specifically for groups of garou that they can use their lores for... use their special abilities... like "tactics" or "riding" or "demolitions" or other random abilities characters have... make them useful. set up plots where we can use them...

9. Soft role play I think soft role play time is good...  but it is hard when there is no reason to talk to someone to suddenly make  a reason to soft role play with them... why not set up things for groups to do... so they are forced to soft role play together, but to accomplish small tasks...  

[PEBE]

those who are acting such probably feel that the individual in question did not truly DESERVE or EARN their Rank. To note: the Litany does NOT state  "submission to those of higher Rank", it says  "submission to those of higher Station"...clearly the two do NOT mean the same thing.

This is all literal from the book, but look at the other side (this is how I see it): The people who go around not submitting to those of higher RANK but not station should be expecting all the consequences of Cliath's telling of Adren/Athros off.. Unless you ICly inquire about challenges, there should be a preconceived notion that the Adren/Athro/Elder has earned their station within the NATION. Unless you know the circumstances of their hell/cakewalk that they've been through to reach that rank, there is a certain amount of RESPECT that needs to be shown. Would you treat an Adren with the same tone as you would an Elder/Legend? If you completely remove rank from the social equation, there are repercussions.

The other half of the issue is the OOC views. People feeling they must tone down their characters or change how the character would react based on OOC considerations. And by that I mean: I feel intimidated by that person OOCly; I know that person's a pain to deal with so I won't get myself involved; etc.

There are clear groupings within our game for styles of RP.. I like my RP with a nice helping of Combat and I'm unwilling to change my character's actions even if someone intimidates me OOCly,  but that's just me.. Then there's Player Bob here, who won't touch Combat with an 11-foot pole and doesn't mind changing the intensity of his character cause the player of the guy he was going to stab's had a rough week.. How can we find a compromise of styles and personalities?

That's what we're trying to figure out here.

[Dedra 'Bomb Shelter' Monahan]

I wish I had been to at least one live meetings, so I am afraid I really don't have much to add in that respect.

However since I have joined I have been spending a lot of time on the boards.  I have only been part of the game for five or six days and I have already logged over a day just watching the boards roll.  If someone is online to roleplay out something with me that is wonderful, we can keep things moving pretty quickly.  It has really helped me develop a lot of the character.

I also have to wonder, I will see one person's name in two or three threads at the same time.  How can a person be in three places at once...are they using packlink, is one thread happening at a different time than another because of slow down with players who aren't online as much.  I haven't done a lot of checking in to it...but I have tried to be very clear, when I have left one place and started into another.

Of course I have found no clear area on the board of when a day starts or a day ends or what day we are even on...I assume it is suppose to match real time, but most of the time that doesn't seem to work (especially with slower posters).

As for the rest all I can say is as I gain more experience role playing with your group I will try and give you more feedback as we go.

[Stalks the Truth]

I hope you all will accept my input even though I am not a member of your chronicle.

I have run Vampire and narrated in Garou. My opinion differs from one persons forementioned idea that the purpose of the game is to try and save Gaia (My paraphrasing, I know its not their exact words), but my understanding is that the purpose of the game is to have fun for everyone involved. For some this will mean a more heavy handed combat game, for others it will be scouting, puzzle solving, pc to pc interations, etc, etc...

This is why it is so hard for ST's and narrators, for they are like politicians in this one regard, they will never keep everyone happy all the time. I know I have had best friends lose perspective and blow up on me over stupid game crap... Unfortunate, but such is life. Have you ever noticed how many new narrators and ST's are usually so excited about stepping up and many of those who have done it for a few years look haggard and burnt out and think about skipping their own game? It is because they are usually out numbered 20 to 1 and never get a break, and when 2 people compliment them they have 7 more complaining.

My main point is this, this is a game. Ideally you, or your pack, is the center of action for a time, and sometimes someone else is. Sometimes the plots all resolve at the same time in combat and you get three games of chop-fests in a row; and then there are two months with hardly any because a new round of plots start and you begin with the investigation that usually leads with another round of combat (It is a Garou's nature and purpose being the main reason for this). Sometimes a ST tries to avoid combat but a few combat fiends will go and instigate one (To their ST's and narrators wrath) anyways.

Rememeber it is a game and your there to have fun. Remeber if you wish RP you can leave the combat scene and RP with other people. Trust me I had to be dragged into combat with Stalks the Truth my last year playing because I would rather go RP or hang with my friends. I understand long combats are lame, and I am almost certain the ST's are really not into them either. I know when I ST'd in Vamp I very quickly came to hate it...

Anyways just my two cents, and they are an outsiders perspective at that...

-Dave

[Justin Northwood]

...I also have to wonder, I will see one person's name in two or three threads at the same time.  How can a person be in three places at once...are they using packlink, is one thread happening at a different time than another because of slow down with players who aren't online as much.  I haven't done a lot of checking in to it...but I have tried to be very clear, when I have left one place and started into another.

Of course I have found no clear area on the board of when a day starts or a day ends or what day we are even on...I assume it is suppose to match real time, but most of the time that doesn't seem to work (especially with slower posters)...

I don't want to get too off-track, but a number of rules are in place for online scenes in the thread linked below.  Typically, a scene is said to take place beginning at the time and date in the initial post's time stamp, unless otherwise indicated.  It's when multiple scenes involving/initiated by one character are taking place with little to no indication of where things fit into the timeline that we begin to see confusion arise.  We ask all players to self-regulate, with mixed results.
RAtC Rules for Online Scenes

While forums play no doubt aids character development through downtimes, personally, I feel like the plethora of goings-on during downtime on the forums is a contributing factor to the current tension.  A text-based medium is much more cold and unforgiving, and can easily lead to misunderstandings that resolving things face-to-face would largely avoid.  I am a big fan of the forums, but as much as we, as staff, try to police the boards for over-posting, there are many who are guilty of it, even if they don't realize it.  It has become far too easy to say "well, this scene is relatively harmless, so it should be ok for me to move on to this next scene at the same time."

To address the issue of "online plots."  In some form, these need to continue to be a part of the game, in order to include a number of long-distance players who are essentially "online only," save for the occasional event game.  I do think we could do a better job of creating online plots that are geared toward specific individuals, to give them something to do, while minimizing spill-over participation from other plot-hungry players.  Well thought out and written plots should be able to accomplish this.

I also want to thank everyone thus far for their well thought out and lengthy (yes, I'm glad they're lengthy) posts in this thread.  It shows a strong desire among the players of this game to help things improve.  As players, this is after all, YOUR game.  Keep the discussion going!

[AlexValentine]

Well, I'm for both. I like having combat and working up flaws and what not, but I also like thinking through problems, and tryingto actualywork with the others around, and trying to get to know each other.

[Shulamith]

Despite playing a character who has a foot planted right in the middle of the combat/puzzles line, I'm not a huge fan of combat.  I prefer doing a few chops/rolling a few dice and then narrating the hell out of a combat.  Of course that doesn't make sense all the time.  Sounds like the general view is that some combat good, mass combat bad, but I wonder if we're ever going to have the staff to player ratio to make that a reality.  I guess time will tell, though I did really enjoy the game where we split into groups and went off to deal with something and got to monopolize an ST apiece.

[Mike]

The issue is we have Three ST's and soon to be Two
We can't be everywhere at once and while it makes sense OOCly to split the group into three it doesnt make since IC most of the time, especially since we have a broad mix of large and small packs. 

The HST job is amazingly large in this type of game.

Develop Plots
Maintain Game Flow
Recruit New Players
Setup New Players
Character Sheet Administration
Downtime Administration
Personal Plot
OWbN Administration
Maintain Forums
Maintain Website
Influence Administration

Now I have delegated some of those things out, but the plates in very very full.
I don't know if people notice how much I smoke at game, or pop advil.
How dinner break I practically run out the door.
It amazingly stressful.

You are, in fact, agreeing with me. Plots are "designed" for a certain pre-determined method of resolution. It's the predetermination of how a plot is "designed" to resolve that needs addressing.

With more sophisticated plot writing and presentation, the issue being presented here for discussion will go a long way towards being resolved.

I know this is a forum to share ideas, but I'm having alot of trouble not feeling insulted by this comment.
I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt that its just one person's critique of the plots we are running.

To the comment itself, I feel my plots are highly sophisticated, and in no way do I plot the end of plots, not do I have pre-determined methods of resolution.  I didnt as an ST foresee the Sept moving the Caern, I didn't as an ST foresee the Group making peace with the Bunyip.  I develop highly complicated plots points and throw them at the players and see how they react, then the story grows.   I like to twist and tie plots together with characters and their actions and/or backgrounds.  The real issue we're having is the game grew much faster then our ST team and we need more people willing to run at game and not play their characters.  We don't have enough people to try and make the game in general happy. 

But with the change of Staff coming after the June game you can make suggestions to the new HST if you feel we are not meeting this sophistication of plots that you speak of. 

I also want to make it clear that while I have been ST'ing for 5 years straight I have only been Role-Playing for 6.  Marc has even less experience, and Joe only a little more then I.  We're trying to provide a great game, and I certainly like to think we have done so.

Thanks everyone for their comments keep them coming

[Darien diSarli]

What do I want out of the game?  Well, let me do some media analysis first.  Bear with me.

What makes a WtA larp different from a tabletop?  In a tabletop, the focus is generally on the pc's heroic actions and often revolves around some epic dramatic narrative where fighting the Wyrm takes prominence.  What a larp chronicle can bring is a sense of continuity, day-to-day stability, and a greater sense of a world outside the pc's personal worldview.  One of the things I was struck by in this game was the strong sense of community and culture amongst the pc's.  Sure, it was status-obsessed and felt a little too cozy with cultural misappropriation, but its sheer alienness to my everyday experience was why I felt drawn to it.

Keep in mind, of course, that while I've been rping and game designing and storytelling for many years now,  I've only been in a couple of larp chronicles, and this is my very first WoD larp chronicle.  So some of this may be inherent to the medium and not particular of this game.  But that's what I was seeing, and that's what I was interested in probing.  Perhaps I chose the exactly wrong (or right) character for this endeavor, but that's how it is.

But that sounds like a long-winded way of saying that I want more politics, and while I like politics, that's not totally the case.  For one thing, I'm playing a few cards short of everyone else for a lot of reasons.  But, more importantly, there's what makes the WoD the WoD.  For a lot of WtA players, that involves glorious combat and dramatic sacrifice against the Wyrm.  For me, it's more a sense that the world is closing in, that things are dark and hopeless, that on a day-to-day and interpersonal level the world is a dark and dismal place.  And the way to accomplish that isn't through inter-pc rp (everyone's the hero of their own story), nor dramatic earth-shaking combat.

Mostly, I'm really interested in what happens when the other worlds and other societies poke in on the garou society we mostly accept as shared space, especially but not necessarily the mundane.  After all, as a garou, you're special.  You're chosen.  You get to hop in and out of the spirit world and participate in a society devoted to how great you are.  This is because garou have a heavy burden to shoulder fighting the Wyrm, but perhaps there's some element of escapism involved in taking part in this society.  Perhaps some of Gaia's chosen spend a little too much time and energy on this society of garou, forgetting why they're fighting in the first place, or what they're fighting for.  With the exception of the Litany-forbidden metis, every single garou had a life as a human or a wolf before they came into this society of violence and status--and what price does a garou pay when they immerse themselves in garou society and ignore the world they came from?

My favorite season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer (this is related, I swear) is Season 6 precisely for the reason most people hate it: all the characters have to deal with real world problems, and there's no amount of super ass-kickery Buffy can do to help herself or her friends from some very depressing realities.  Being super-powerful and able to destroy things with a single clawed hand is great, but I'm more interested in what makes these people human--or interesting and multi-dimensional characters, anyways.

To sum up in a phrase again: Kinfolk plots?  Mortal world plots?  Conspiracy plots?  I don't know.  These are just some thoughts on what I find interesting thematically in the game.

To answer your direct question, is there too much combat?  Well, I'm going to echo a lot of sentiments when I say that mass combat isn't too interesting to me.  Besides all the usual issues of taking forever and dragging the game down (despite some good efforts on behalf of the ST team), there is the fact that mass combat feels like a spectator sport where all the high-powered PCs get to be awesome, and the rest of us try not to die.

The player of Garrett ran a scene for all two of us from my pack during last session, and I really enjoyed it if for not other reason than because I felt I had some agency in the scene.  Obviously, it's not feasible for so few STs to run scenes specifically tailored to individuals or even individual packs, especially as the game grows, but I would like to see more smaller scale scenes.  Perhaps feeling inconsequential is supposed to be part of the WtA experience as a cliath, but it's not that much fun to me.

One possible workaround is by encouraging players to generate content specifically for other packs or players.  If they get to run the scene and the pack all agrees that they enjoyed it, then the player can get an extra XP or something.  Maybe that's not an overwhelming reward, and would be hard to manage, but it's one way of harnessing the growing player base to do some of your work for you.

I don't mind combat at all, despite the fact that I don't feel the system is really built for combat.  But combat is only one form of challenge for a pc to overcome.  You guys did a good job of working in all sorts of challenge in the first game I played, amd it was largely absent in the most recent one.  My character isn't built for combat (which I think everyone knows), so for me to enjoy a game, combat shouldn't be a predominant part of it.  As I hint above, I don't think that combat really is essential to capturing the nastier side of the WoD--and often takes away from it.  After all, any of us can smash a bad guy.  What do you do when a teen Kinfolk runs away from a crappy home situation?  Or, after spending months fighting the Wyrm in the umbra, you come home to find your house repossessed?  The potential for misery is far more potent than the potential for death--especially in a game where death is almost expected.

So that's what I'm interested in, but if you really want to frame this in terms of this divide between people who want to fight things and people who don't, well, here's a fix: give some reason for the people who want to fight things to fight each other.  That'll keep them busy and free the people who don't to do whatever else they want.

Interpack politics?  A tournament or something?  I don't know.  Just a thought.

[Daniel]

I'm one of those pesky and annoying forum only people. And I have to admit that I like to see plot run and resolved on the boards. This website is quite probably the most active and best run OWBN forum chronicle. Granted I haven't been on every one there is for extended periods but these boards were the reason that I transferred my character up there. They are something you (the players) and you (the st team) should be proud of.

Character interaction is fun.  Character growth is possible.

I think people just have to have a bit more patience with forum scenes. Or look at possibly setting up a sub-forum for scheduling times when everyone can be online at the same time and shotgun through a scene quickly. I like using the R-P-S device but I'm just as happy to narrate out things. The only reason that I prefer to do the occasional chops is it adds the element of chance. When narrating combat I find that people (myself included) rarely like to write about themselves losing.

Another method of R-P-S that has worked in the past for me is to send via AIM a long screed of RPSSSRPPPSBBRPPSSSR and then after each person has done so send a number. Each person counts and discovers what was thrown....


Regarding predetermination in plot:
To some extent to have plot is to have a level of predetermination. Whatever the scenario in order to have a scenario you have to define the scenario. Otherwise its just a bunch of people standing around staring at eachother being in character which can be fun don't get me wrong but waiting (or not waiting) for something to happen.

Antagonists want something to happen. That defines the plot point. PC discover 1. that there are antagonists. 2. that they want something to happen and 3. how they feel about antagonists achieving those goals.

The problem arises when STs have predetermined the outcome for said plot regardless of pcs. Gods do i ever hate watching NPC theatre waiting to be fed the next clue that was impossible to discover because it was decided nothing the PCs did mattered.

Too often when PCs complain that a plot is pre-determined what they are really complaining about was either
1. The plot was too opaque. (ST)
2. PCs don't want to accept consequences. (PC)

They want to substitute ST predeterminism with  PC pre-determinism. What they did should have worked. That it didn't is proof that the ST has a pre-determined outcome. But it could just as easily be proof that actions don't always have the desired consequences. And that what the PCs did... did do something just not what they expected.

In order for truely free plots to develop both STs and PCs have to come to a level of acceptance with failure. So long as consequence follows action... the story grows and changes.

As an ST I don't want to tell a story. I want to participate in a story too. If I simply wanted to tell a story I'd write fanfic or develop short stories or novels. I imagine it is the same for other STs.

Oh and tpo Garett... your plot was incredibly cool and wonderfully well written. I'm sorry if I did something that pushed it from being fun for you. bashful apologies.

My 5 cents (Canadian)

[Darien diSarli]

As an ST I don't want to tell a story. I want to participate in a story too. If I simply wanted to tell a story I'd write fanfic or develop
short stories or novels. I imagine it is the same for other STs.

This is not at all a comment on you or the STs of this game or anything, but as a writer, I can say that's pretty much untrue.  Writing is hard and solitary work with pretty much no reward, and running a game is one way for storytellers who don't want to sit in a chair for a bajillion hours to get a story out and get instant feedback (usually good) from a few people who are there specifically to witness their creation.  I'm not saying that running a game is easy (I know from personal experience how difficult and how much of a headache it is), but the conventional wisdom that a storyteller desiring total control will write fiction is just false.

Again, this isn't a comment or a jab at the STs.  Just me busting a myth that gets on my nerves.

[Daniel]

It's not false. It's what I do. When I want to tell a story... I write.
When I want to share in a story... I ST or narrate or LARP.

If you don't feel the same... so be it. But it is how I feel and that's no myth.

[Darien diSarli]

And that's totally great.  I'll never ever speak for your own personal experience.  It's just when you attribute that attitude to other creators, you're perpetuating a destructive myth concerning creative types that leads to negative experiences across media.

Though I do have some more probing questions for you, I'll take it to a PM so as not to derail the thread.

[Daniel]

Glah... not only did I break the game!
I destroyed all creativity and broke the interwebs as well.

Fear my mighty powers! For they are mighty and... errr.. powerful.
And stuff.

*fears he just proved the point*
*slinks off before he becomes bitter and callous*

[Stalks the Truth]

Yeah way to go Mike, next you'll unravel  reality too...
 

[Torvald Magnusson]

Thoughts on Game Type

OK, I have given a long hard look at this question to try to be as accurate as I can be and I will break this into a couple of parts so please bear with me.

Let me start by saying I enjoy this game. Initially I was skeptical as I had participated in the old Hidden Flame game years ago and was turned off to the OWbN style and org in a few months. I decided to give this another shot as Tom and Caroline spoke highly of the game as did a couple other folks and I truly wanted to play in another Werewolf game.

So I gathered up a group of friends to pack with based on one simple premise. If the game sucked I could always turn around and RP with my pack. The reason for this is because the core concept of Werewolf will always come back to Pack, but in the wolf mind and in the Human family mind.

Having found a pack to bring we got in touch with the ST's and sat down to chat with them laying out what we each were looking for in a WoD LARP and away we went.

Given this, what I personally asked for are these things and they have not changed.

1: I want to be engaged in PC interaction.
At MJ I wrote a 16 page character history in the hopes that not only would the staff use it for plot but more so that I could interact with other players and hear about their back stories for their characters and in doing so build a rich and thorough understanding of them and their motivations. Later it could also allow us to just turn and shoot the shit in down time.

Sadly in MJ this did not happen and it is why I hoped it would in a smaller troupe style game.

I handed the ST's a decent character history and a robust Pure Breed lineage in the hopes that those things could happen at this game. Thus far in the first year I have had very little chance to do this, but given that I am very new to most of the original players I accepted this and kept coming.

2: I want to feel it.
What I mean by this is I wrote a character with strengths and weaknesses. Every action he takes has a well thought out reason for it. Given this not all of his actions will be noble and good ones. Some will be selfish, boorish, and heavy handed. I have written flaws into the characters psyche which make it possible to manipulate him into doing things for others. In the end I wrote a living breathing character, not some amalgamation of stats. Once all of this was done and approved, only then did I sit down and build a character sheet.

I want to feel the world around me. I want to know how the air tastes, how the world looks and smells. I want to be able to look into another players eyes and without a single chop know what they think and how they feel about what I just said. I want the full gambit of human emotions, not just happiness and sadness. I want to know what it is like to fight for a LOSING CAUSE like the Japanese on Okinawa or the me in the Alamo. I want to feel despair, fear, elation, betrayal, hatred, love, and true brotherhood.

I want the world around me to change based on my actions and I want people to have heated opinions about what we do. Most of all I was consequences.

I want a cause and effect, I want an action and a series of reactions. I want to instigate someone into a Frenzy, watch them lose their mind and kill a cub and feel regret for my actions. I want to go into a nursing home to fight a fomori and be incited to a frenzy in the battle, tears and killing anything with a pulse. While walking out with buts of peoples grandmothers and grandfathers in my hair I want to learn that one of them was a Fianna kin and I want to tribe to call for my head.

I want to feel it.

3: I want politics and manipulation

Initially we had planned to play a pack of Shadow Lords for this reason. We each had our own methods and style, desire and deceit. When you stick 30 balls of killing rage into a space meant for 1 pack of 4-5 wolves you will get tension, anger, suspense and most of all posturing. Wolves and especially werewolves are territorial, they defend their home and families with ANY tool they find by ANY means needed. One of those tools will always be making someone else look worse than you, driving them down the chain of rank.

This can be done through combat sure, but most of all it is conniving, convincing and perception.

Take for instance Torvald. A general perception I hear a lot is "Stay away from him or he'll kill you."

Care in point, Torvald has never killed a PC, and has in fact saved the lives of many PC's in non-combat ways. The perception is that he is a killer, in reality he is a caring soul. This is the power of perception

I want packs to bicker, I want tension in my RP and I want strife in my RP. I want something to overcome. I want to work out the flaws in the character someday but not overnight. I want posturing, yelling, hugging, tears, and RAGE. I want there to never be a moment in which you are not perfectly aware that EVERY garou you are surrounded by has the potential to kill you in a blinding red haze of frenzy.

And then I want to bond over it. I want to feel sadness at loss and make others feel it worse. I want to lay blame and get blame laid on me. I want finger pointing, convincing and back stabbing and in the end I want all these things because this is one of the root themes in Werewolf.

__________________________________________

When we arrived and brought our characters the first words used IG near us is "Crap how the fuck are we supposed to deal with a pack of Get."

Thank you for playing up the stereotype.

I also know that some players are not thrilled with how I have played a Fenrir. The comment is about the entire pack but I will only refer to myself in this post. I also know ion the other side that there are players that were thrilled that we came in and played a hard style. The pain and strife was inevitable.

Please know that I do everything IG and keep things there. I want folks to know that no matter what happens IG I still want to build a bond and friendship OOG. I know this is not possible with everyone but I want to try so please keep the two separate.


So given all that here are things which I have seen in the game that I am not a fan of or would like to see changed.

The Wyrm has 3 parts, I only ever seem to deal with 1 part (Beast of War) IG most if not nearly all of the time. I would love to see more Defiler and Corrupter plots

I hear of all these great plots which have happened and how open ended and free form they are, yet not a single one has been introduced, hooked or passed toward our pack. I understand that everyone should have plot so I try not to gripe but I think there is a certain misconception here which I will attempt to clear up.

I do NOT LOVE combat. I enjoy combat when it is a part of the game just as much as when puzzles both social and physical are involved. I have abilities on my sheet which have NOTHING to do with combat and would love to use them someday.

On this though I will not shy away from combat just as I will not shy away from emotional moments or thinking moments. Understand that while I am playing a Fenrir he does have mental traits and scholastic abilities. Not all Fenrir fight all the time. That is the stereotype yes but in reality the Fianna are not always drunk, the CoG do have Ahroun that fight, and SL's can be magnanimous.

Yes I am in a war pack and we expect to be thrown at the big fight but that big fight should come after months of planning, recon, research, efforts and actions which are not combat to set up the fight in a way that it has an emotional impact.

I don't care if a thunderwyrm shows up. I do care if it eats and orphanage or a city bus.


On the topic of mass combats
I come for the school of experience that tells me two things.

First they can actually be run quickly and second, they suck if anyone feels like they are not needed.

I think a combat on the scale of thunderwyrm, nexus crawler, uber bane, caern move etc should happen 1-2 times a year tops. Most combats should be resolvable with a pack of 4-5 garou and if you need more you are sending the wrong kids to deal with the issue.


On the topic of Moots
I am of the feeling that they fall under the heading above of I want to FEEL it. That requires prep time and effort. Additionally I propose that they should only happen 3-4 times a year but that the game should focus on them almost exclusively. Perhaps even make a Sunday follow up day for 4-6 hours which is just the moot the day following the Saturday game. I suspect players could make 3-4 of these a year if they knew about them in advance.

I want to hear the tales, I want to feel the spirituality of the activity. I want a real revel and I want to know that we are making a connection to Gaia. That can;t happen in a 2 hour window.


I have a ton more to say but I run on here.so...

In Conclusion:
I want DARKNESS and I want it to choke me like Carbon Monoxide. It's there, it's deadly and most of the time you never see it coming.

I want a WORLD of it, living, breathing, self motivated, action and reactionary. I want to feel like a blood cell in the stream of a vein. Moving, bumping, changing, acting. Though in the end, headed in an inevitable line to the end only to be used again for the same purpose.

[Staren Stanley]

While I've been busy with life lately and unable to make games, I will say that I quite enjoy the social aspect, meeting new characters and learning more about them and the world. Ironic, since my character is somewhat combat-focused... Although that's an aspect of the character too -- showing off his prowess, or failing and seeing that he needs to work more at it... but when it comes down to it, I enjoy the social stuff more, but it wouldn't be Werewolf and it wouldn't be my character if there wasn't a seasoning of beating up badguys. More interested in fighting bad guys than other werewolves, though.

[Carter Heyward]

Extra thoughts randomly from tonight:

Player or ST created things within game should only be used if they do not unbalance things unfairly in favour of one set of players or player. No created thing should be more powerful than anything already written, no created thing should be used if it specifically compliments something else in game mechanically only, and have no other purpose except to compliment things mechanically. That is manipulating the system, and cheating.

On the manipulating the system, if you win an RPS all the time because you remember other people's patterns, that's also cheating. Don't do it. If you find you can't help it, get a die, or use cards. This game isn't about winning RPS.

[Carter Heyward]

One final thought (I hope) for now:

This is for staff: if you find you cannot give up your character at game to be staff, don't be staff. The game is at such a size now that it needs staff who are only staff. Shelve, or absent your characters, we as players are more than smart enough to find solutions without n-important-character.

[Stalks the Truth]

Extra thoughts randomly from tonight:

Player or ST created things within game should only be used if they do not unbalance things unfairly in favour of one set of players or player. No created thing should be more powerful than anything already written, no created thing should be used if it specifically compliments something else in game mechanically only, and have no other purpose except to compliment things mechanically. That is manipulating the system, and cheating.

On the manipulating the system, if you win an RPS all the time because you remember other people's patterns, that's also cheating. Don't do it. If you find you can't help it, get a die, or use cards. This game isn't about winning RPS.

I am curious if you could provide some sort of example of the first part you mentioned, because this seems confusing as it is currently written. As for the RPS thing, it is not cheating if someone does not pay attention in my humble opinion. It is not my job as character x to make sure I am not winning when given a chance to do so. Personally, out of politeness and curtosy, I try to warn people if I notice they are in a perdictable pattern, but if they do not change after that then I just tool them so they learn the hard way... Besides some people use patterns to set up for when they skip the pattern. It is valid strategy in such a broken game mechanical broke ass system.

[Arianna_Fireau]

Extra thoughts randomly from tonight:

Player or ST created things within game should only be used if they do not unbalance things unfairly in favour of one set of players or player. No created thing should be more powerful than anything already written, no created thing should be used if it specifically compliments something else in game mechanically only, and have no other purpose except to compliment things mechanically. That is manipulating the system, and cheating.

I actually agree with this statement completely. I'm afraid we're starting to see a lot of player-created things in game in lieu of canonical things (Fetishes and gifts) that appear sort of unbalancing.

For example... I believe a gift was created with was basically Stinging Blows except more powerful (not able to be ignored by spending a Willpower) and not a Children of Gaia tribal gift?

[Mike]

No Kat that is not the case

[Arianna_Fireau]

I guess that I just prefer canonical stuff to homebrew as there are hundreds of books filled with hundreds of things. White Wolf did a decent job building a world that I want to play in.

[Mike]

well Also in Cannon is listed the development of Gifts and Rituals.
I'd argue that what is happening is completely in Gene and Cannon.

[Taweret]

We might be nitpicking a little bit.

I for one prefer social games. I mean, it's Werewolf so there has to be a fair amount of combat for sure, but I want scenes that three, four, five years from now we'll still be talking about. We never reminisce about how we killed the giant floating cube monster from hell while the Spirals were performing their own version of a Caern Building, but we always joke about things like the spirit quest where Thoth was taken into the Pack, or when Owen and Thoth went out to pick up Vampires, or the day Alice turned into a spider-thing. GRR SMASH ARGH isn't how I have fun, I get wildly bored during combat.

Unless I'm Wyrm Tainted and schooling Owen. But I digress.

I'm also a fan of teamwork, plots that tie different people together so that nobody alone is a pretty pretty princess.

This is also a game of savage horror, and there should be LOTS of fear, terror and horror. This can be done with minimal combat. Consequences to actions, confusion, fear and overcoming impossible odds make the small quiet times something really cherished.