Kin vs. Pre-Change Garou and Scent of True Form

[Owen Smith]

Hey All,

Is there any way to know if a Garou is a Garou before their First Change? Does Scent of True Form do it? Every game does it differently.

Thanks,

Ken

[Seven Mountains]

Just my .02

I have always believed that Scent of the True Form will identify a being as Garou before their first change, else there would be no reason for a Baptism of Fire and kin fetches.

[AndrewD]

The write up for Baptism of Fire explicitly states Scent of True Form is the typical method by which Garou are identified. And, as Vance said, the would be no point for Baptism of Fire to exist if you couldn't identify Garou pre-change.

[Owen Smith]

That's what I thought, but I wanted to check.

[Erik Bridge]

Is Rory's son garou?  I've never got an answer from Jason when It happened.

[JamesLee]

The write up for Baptism of Fire explicitly states Scent of True Form is the typical method by which Garou are identified. And, as Vance said, the would be no point for Baptism of Fire to exist if you couldn't identify Garou pre-change.

Potential background inconsistencies aside, I read Laws of the Wild for the first time assuming that all typical angsty teen fantasy tropes would hold true, so didn't even consider that there could be a way to simply know if someone was a Garou or not.* With that reading, the point of Baptism of Fire is that you don't have to keep an eye on your myriad extended kinfolk family trees to catch the Garou when they happen. You have spirits that will tell you if anyone breeds true.

Not saying that's in any way the case, just that that's what the point of the ritual could be in the alternate universe where we don't automatically know all Garou. Also, I assume that description of Baptism by Fire is in a book other than LotW, or a different version than the one I have. Which book is it in? (I've recently discovered I'm missing a few fairly relevant texts and should remedy this. Edit: Or rather, I've discovered that some versions I have of things are out of date.)

*The trope in question being the typical will they won't they, where one of the characters /might/ become a cool fantasy figure like their friends or family, but they don't know until it happens.

[PEBE]

The Gift 'Scent of the True Form' will immediately detect a pre-change garou as per the writeup (same as detecting garou). Understand that this tests that person's potental.. until they actually go through their 1st change, they are for all other intents still just Kin. Some people go through it sooner, some later than most.. some who have gone through the Rite never go through a 1st change.. odd circumstances happen, that's just how it is... so is this all 100% foolproof, no. But it's the best assortment of steps to make sure those who do change, are brought into the fold and taught what it means to be garou.

[JamesLee]

For those Kin who never have a traumatic enough experience to change, do they stop reading Garou once they've passed the ages of potential?

[Arianna_Fireau]

There are stories of people changing right up and into their 30s in really bizarre circumstances?

[JamesLee]

Sure, but if their life has been free of trauma, in theory they should live beyond their 30s. So are there otherwise-human grandparents wandering around registering as Garou?

And Garou are more likely to have Garou children than Kinfolk are. If that kicks in whether or not the Garou in question changes, you could end up with a confused Philodox born to a Garou-reading Kinfolk, which could be amusing/interesting. Might even lead to the child attempting to actively traumatize the parent, if they're quite strange. (I guess technically that could happen even if it doesn't kick in, but if the spirits register a person as Garou I'm not sure why it wouldn't. It would make missed-change Garou prime breeding stock, at least.)

Huh. And would a Garou mating with a pre-or-missed-change Garou still lead to a Metis?

Uh... I think too much. Sorry about that. Am still curious, though.

[AndrewD]

See, now we're straying firmly into interpretation of genre, rather than what is published/presented as canonical genre. As well as exceedingly rare situations, which, while not impossible, are orders of magnitude improbable, given Garou are rare to begin with.

I also do not buy Garou (and/or Pure Breed) make for more likely a Garou baby, as the very rareness of Garou is part of genre, which leads me to the conclusion that any breeding involving the Garou gene/spirit (the latter is more important here, as genetics and Garou is a fuzzy thing at best) is unlikely to produce a Garou child/cub.

Furthermore, change is not necessarily a traumatic event, or even triggered by one. This is just the most common (though I will conceed having not read that section of the book for some time).

See the studies into potentially how widespread one man's genes are supposed to be to give lie to the genetic part of Garou breeding, and the partnerings of parents (Garou/kin, kin/kin) mattering that much, for if it was that simple, Garou would rule the world still.

[JamesLee]

Perhaps I am interacting poorly with the idea of genre as opposed to rules. The way I generally see it, the rules are the rules, and rather than ignoring something because it doesn't fit the flavor, you figure out what twists in logic are required to make it fit. Because what is explicitly stated in the rule books is really the only thing everyone can agree on. (And even then there are arguments.)

So I have to accept the Garou mating chart probability as canon, because the books tell me it is.  As for why everyone on Earth isn't a Kin or Garou at this point, well, I have to invent in my mind the loophole of "Once you're far enough away from Garou blood, the spirits start ignoring you and you return to registering as human." Hence the "possibility to change" listed in the Rite would be "making sure you're still Kinfolk."* Sure, this would be rather unnecessary in the cases of high pure breed, but after millions of years mixing with non-Garou the vast majority of Kinfolk are nearly human, or, in some flat-out bizarre cases, are born of people who are both too human to produce a Garou, but just Garou enough together that there's a chance to have a Kinfolk again. This also explains why things like "This incredibly Pure Bred house hasn't had children in a while" is flat out creepy and bizarre, rather than just a mildly unfortunate circumstance of being Garou.

Yes, this is wonky and stupid and should certainly never be published in a book anywhere, but it's a more subtle way to make what's stated make sense than saying "X is so because it's published, but Y isn't so because though it's published, it doesn't make any sense."

Now at this point I've gone way into interpretation and don't expect other interpretations to sync up with mine, but I will continue to assume that published things work the way they're published, and that if something is allowed by those things, even if genre implies that it's rare, it remains a possibility. Because honestly, the edge cases are intriguing and frequently messed up, and so long as they remain rare, I don't see how exploring them takes away from a genre that revels in things that are intriguing and frequently messed up.

*My original interpretation of the Rite, not saying it's correct, just that it's how I read it at the time.

[Alexander Amarandus van Bokkelen]

I also do not buy Garou (and/or Pure Breed) make for more likely a Garou baby

This is printed canon, though.

[Arianna_Fireau]

It's also printed Canon that the least purely Bred Tribes have the most members, which directly contradicts the above statement. By that idea, Bone Gnawers and especially Glasswalkers would have died out years ago. It's White Wolf contradicting itself (again).

Note, I am playing Devil's Advocate and have no real stock in the debate in the slightest.

[Alexander Amarandus van Bokkelen]

I have some serious stock in this, as my entire character background was written on the assumption that what was published in the book was actually true.

[JamesLee]

It's also printed Canon that the least purely Bred Tribes have the most members, which directly contradicts the above statement. By that idea, Bone Gnawers and especially Glasswalkers would have died out years ago. It's White Wolf contradicting itself (again).

That assumes that they only breed from their own Kin, which, since neither tribe has any Pure Breed with which to designate kin "theirs," seems unlikely. They're in theory growing because the overall number of people is growing, which means the overall number of unclaimed Kin is also growing.

[Mass Trauma NPC]

It's also printed Canon that the least purely Bred Tribes have the most members, which directly contradicts the above statement. By that idea, Bone Gnawers and especially Glasswalkers would have died out years ago. It's White Wolf contradicting itself (again).

Note, I am playing Devil's Advocate and have no real stock in the debate in the slightest.

.

Also those two tribes will take practically anyone. To be a Fury you must be a woman, Silverfang you must be purebred, Red talon: lupus. But glasswalker and bonegnawer? You just have to live in the city or be poor and those two groups cover most of humanity.

[Arthur A Dennison]

The real reason Bone Gnawers and Glasswalkers don't suffer population issues isn't just the fact that the Tribe itself takes anyone, it's also that the tribes members have more mates/children than other tribes would consider close to honorable. There are plenty of references in Bone Gnawer resources about "I've probably fathered a dozen or so kin, honestly couldn't tell you where they are now but hey, I wish them and their mothers the best." They play the law of averages at reproduction and they come out ahead.

[Carter Heyward]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that Pure Breed and babies is in the Kinfolk book, which is an unrevised Second Edition book, and technically no longer 'canon' (or at least suspect, given the dramatic changes from 2nd to Revised)?

On the subject of that and Garou/Kin making babies, neither of the two Legends within canon, Albrecht and Koneitzko, have Garou parents.

[Arianna_Fireau]

You're wrong, but I corrected you on the phone. <3

All of the babymaking is in PGG.

[Erik Bridge]

Many of those unbred tribes adopt foundlings and any who aren't clearly of another tribe.

[Seven Mountains]

And keep in mind that a characters tribe is commonly decided on spiritually. While the inclination is for a spirit to side with a line of pure breed I can think of many garou in OWbN whose PB /= their tribe.

[JamesLee]

On the subject of that and Garou/Kin making babies, neither of the two Legends within canon, Albrecht and Koneitzko, have Garou parents.

Well yes. There are far more Kinfolk than Garou, even in the most well bred families, so though the probability of a Kin having a Garou child is lower than a Garou having a Garou, the probability of a Garou having only Kin parents is much higher. Also, though Garou have a higher chance of having Garou babies, they have a lower chance of having babies in general, let alone enough to ensure that one breeds true. (Not that one can ensure such a thing. The law of averages lies. But you know what I mean.)